Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
Grassroots for Bernie Sanders 2016
- Thread starter Treetopflyer
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Bernie Sanders: "The answer to every problem--government." (paraphrase)
Thomas Jefferson: "A government big enough to give you everything you want, is a government big enough to take away everything that you have."
Benjamin Franklin: “They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
Currently we still have choice. Choose wisely. Your children and mine will reap the harvest.
macswan
Been here a while
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- Champlain Valley, VT
How many fucking people lived in America when those two were yacking about big government? There are too many people it this country/world. To navigate the intricacy of maintaining that much life with individual governments every fifteen godam feet. There has gotta be a large government. One overarching theme. Until we have significant reductions in population the government will be large. Cost of doing business with this many people overrunning every inch of the damn planet.
I am not a fan of our government, but I think for different reasons than some.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
I live in a county of 950000 people. There are 72 autonomous towns/boros with their own mayor and councils and necessary staffing. Each fighting to maintain their little fiefdom while many of the issues extend beyond their political boundaries. Instead of consolidating into more regional government they continue to fight amongst themselves.
What is "big" government? There needs to be effective representation and management. Don't think that business has the answer either. There's plenty of screwballs, corruption and mismanagement there too.
What is "big" government? There needs to be effective representation and management. Don't think that business has the answer either. There's plenty of screwballs, corruption and mismanagement there too.
Easy Hoss. It appears that this "overcrowding" is stressing you out.
Sadly, this is a theme I see all too often nowadays. These schools don't teach history anymore--they teach social studies. When they do teach American History, they teach the history of every other country right alongside it. No American exceptionalism. No miraculous formation. These are just a bunch of "old dead white men"; no different than any others who formed a new nation.
It amazes me how people can't see that this country is something special. It hinges on principles that have never been tried in the history of mankind. And we're throwing up our hands and walking away from it. We'd like to try the European way (socialism). Maybe we can make it work where they have experienced failure after failure.
I believe that one of the saddest things I see in these posts is how so many are turning their backs on what they know to be truth. Many of you have fathers and/or grandfathers who would tell you, or do tell you, the very same things I'm saying. Some have even fought for the values this country holds dear; and some may have sacrificed their life. Many, if not most, of you have parents and/or grandparents who fall into the majorities of the following polls:
And yet--many are turning their backs on these values. I'm here to say that truth is not relative. Truth is exclusive. Right is still right, and wrong is still wrong. What was wrong 100 years ago is still wrong today. It doesn't matter how muddy the waters get, truth is self-evident. When we lay our head down on our pillow at night, we can't get away from that fact.
TH...you're confusing me. Are you, or are you not, in Canada?
Back at ya. And thanks for the kind words.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
I'm from Canada. Grew up there, traveled around the country, lived in Ottawa, worked on "the Hill" for a short time. Was actually a member of the Young Progressive Conservatives (that's the Canadian equivalent of the GOP).
I moved to Bergen County in NJ, Ridgefield specifically, in 2008.
I moved to Bergen County in NJ, Ridgefield specifically, in 2008.
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
Hope and faith brother . Don't lose them cause sometimes once gone can be hard to find again.
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
Could it not be that it worked for sometime ( the American way you speak of ) now as the country has gotten older and lots of crooked people worked over the system to thier advantage leaving many to lose. Now we are trying a approach that older countries are useing because it works better for those in the country.. If they keep experiening failure why do the same thing over and over .. Are you implying their not smart enough to realize failure.. Or are you not admitting our country is at that point and need to change?
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
I can promise you one thing. If the liberals succeed in putting the financial burden of college and university tuition on the American taxpayer; there will absolutely be this result:
Universities and Colleges will emerge that will not accept and/or qualify for that taxpayer funding. Those "private" schools will emerge as the future Harvards, Princetons, Yales, etc. Those schools will provide the quality education that the students & parents will search out. And the parents and students will be willing to pay the additional funds--in spite of the fact that they simultaneously fund the tax supported schools with their tax money as well. Just like public education in elementary, middle, and high schools today; the government will literally ruin "higher education". We've already seen this happen, as parents who care, pull their children out of public education at the lower levels. I personally know several families who cannot actually afford private schools. However, they make the sacrifices for the future of their children. The ones who are severely poor, or financially "tight", opt for homeschooling.
The point is that every time the free-market offers a choice, people increasingly choose that option. The only way to prevent people flocking to the free-market option is to allow government to eliminate/suppress those options. This is where Hillary and Bernie are headed. Just like "single-payer", that's the only way it is feasible. Starts to look a lot more like communism than socialism. Freedoms get stepped on in the name of "public wellbeing." Most people who are for these social programs don't realize that it will ultimately remove the choices available to them. I am not okay with that. Give me the flaws and greed of free-market capitalism with its choices--keep the iron fist of government off my neck. That's American! And I couldn't care less what Obama says we are. The fact is that when he states, "That's not who we are"; he is not speaking for me. He's not even speaking for a majority of America. He's projecting what he wants America to be after his fundamental changes take effect.
Universities and Colleges will emerge that will not accept and/or qualify for that taxpayer funding. Those "private" schools will emerge as the future Harvards, Princetons, Yales, etc. Those schools will provide the quality education that the students & parents will search out. And the parents and students will be willing to pay the additional funds--in spite of the fact that they simultaneously fund the tax supported schools with their tax money as well. Just like public education in elementary, middle, and high schools today; the government will literally ruin "higher education". We've already seen this happen, as parents who care, pull their children out of public education at the lower levels. I personally know several families who cannot actually afford private schools. However, they make the sacrifices for the future of their children. The ones who are severely poor, or financially "tight", opt for homeschooling.
The point is that every time the free-market offers a choice, people increasingly choose that option. The only way to prevent people flocking to the free-market option is to allow government to eliminate/suppress those options. This is where Hillary and Bernie are headed. Just like "single-payer", that's the only way it is feasible. Starts to look a lot more like communism than socialism. Freedoms get stepped on in the name of "public wellbeing." Most people who are for these social programs don't realize that it will ultimately remove the choices available to them. I am not okay with that. Give me the flaws and greed of free-market capitalism with its choices--keep the iron fist of government off my neck. That's American! And I couldn't care less what Obama says we are. The fact is that when he states, "That's not who we are"; he is not speaking for me. He's not even speaking for a majority of America. He's projecting what he wants America to be after his fundamental changes take effect.
Treetopflyer
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Coastal N.J
First off thanks for your thought provoking posts BRT and I mean that very sincerely. Secondly one person in our form of government doesn't pocess that much power regardless. I know still even though I don't agree with everything Bernie says that he is the most electable straight shooter in the race who has a shot at actually becoming president. Apparently I'm not the only one.
Sounds like family to me
The Federal Government.
Precisely--that is what state and local government provide. And, sad to say, increasingly this is not provided by state government. As in the case of NY. The tail wags the dog up there. Everyone in the state is taxed to death for the good of NYC. The "peasants" in rural NY see very little of their tax money go to work for them. Illinois is soon to fall prey to the same corruption and mismanagement. They will likely have to give their all to bail out the irresponsible policies of generations of Chicago thugs (Rahm Emanuel being the most recent).
This is the one I totally cannot understand. And I've seen this reoccur in this thread and 'Fair Wealth Distribution'. Realize that business "gets away" with what the government allows. Bernie and Hillary's plan to balloon the size of government will only increase these leniencies.
Ask yourself--why do businessmen (take Trump for example) pad the palms of politicians? He's worth $10 billion. If big business called the shots, he'd be doing the taking. Not the giving. The reality is that businesses dole out tons of money to politicians. That is because the politicians call the shots. Trillions in contracts come from government. The rules are written by government. They are enforced by government. Have you ever worked for a huge organization? OSHA, the EPA, the IRS, the EEOC, etc. these government entities dominate each and every move business makes.
What about Wall Street? There has probably never been a single man (and his administration who follow his philosophy) who has contributed more to the NYSE & Nasdaq than Obama. It's called QE3. It's corporate welfare. It's free money for the market. It has propped up the stock market for the last 7 years in the attempt to make this economy look stable, if not growing. That money comes out of the taxpayer's pocked and goes into the businesses that trade publicly. No business nor group of businesses has ever defrauded the American citizens to such a degree. If you want corporate welfare reduced--reduce the size of government.
Here's another promise--after Bernie spends that additional $18 trillion (in new spending); it won't even scratch the surface. How do I know? Lets look at a textbook liberal--Barry's promises when he took office. In addition to the $3.3 trillion of revenue the Federal Government rakes in per year, he has spent an additional $8 trillion that has been tacked on to the national debt. How are they doing--the ones who came out in droves to vote for him? Hope & Change!
Here are some basic facts about life in black America under President Barack Obama:
- In spite of Obama’s $275 billion in housing-market bailouts, home ownership has waned.
- In the first quarter of 2009, 67.3% of Americans owned homes. By 1Q 2014, the Census Bureau figure was 64.8%.
- Black home ownership has sagged from 46.1% in 2009 to 43.3% in 2014.
- The poverty rate for blacks is now 25.8%.
- Fewer than half of young black men are working a full-time job.
- The black workforce is decreasing, down from 58.6% in June 2007 to 52.8% in August 2012.
- The median minority family’s income is now almost fifth lower than it was when Obama took office with a net worth of just $18,100.
- In contrast, white median wealth has increased by 1% to $142,000.
- In 2009, white households were 7 times richer than black households. Now, white households are 8 times richer.
But--Liberals are credited for their intentions--not their results. They say, "He has done everything in his power to help the poor and downtrodden--it's that stubborn Congress that opposes him at every turn." To that I remind you that the liberals and moderates in both houses have given him everything he has asked for. And what they wouldn't go along with, he has decreed through executive action. Liberalism is a doomed answer for the woes of mankind. You wouldn't raise your children giving them everything they want. If you're smart, you'll make them work for it. If you don't, you just might get to raise your grandchildren.
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Negative!
The version I "preach" is the United States of America for the last 250 years.
That's why you find me and other conservatives quoting the founding fathers. Liberals/Progressives don't quote them. You'll hardly see them pull something from Abraham Lincoln or John Kennedy.
Oh wait, I do believe this is utopia. Compared to any other country on earth that is. And, if the others are so great, let me ask you--Why do you have to change this last resort of freedom? Why can't you just go to one of those wonderful places in Europe, South America, Africa, India, Asia?
Oh, I get it--in many of them, you wouldn't even have the liberty to say you disagreed with how things were run. Is that a coincidence? That the country you want to change is one of the last places you can voice your opinion about how wrong you think everything is going? NO, it is no coincidence! But keep up the hope and change. We'll get it there soon enough.
Can't happen in America you say? Most people are too young to realize just how close the Allied Forces were to being overrun by the Nazis. Take a look around the world. Stop starring at the tiny bubble of your home and hometown. Russia is in a mess. Iran is stirring the pot in the entire Middle East. Europe is overrun with Muslims. Africa is starving. India is unstable at best. And China may be on the verge of economic collapse. Ask yourself--is this really the time to go deeper into debt to our foreign lenders? To support people who spend their cash money on beer, cigarettes, pornography, lottery tickets, & drugs, and are already in debt because of alimony, vacations, motorcycles, and payday loan furniture?
The only answer is to reduce the size of out-of-control government. Balance the budget. Pay off the debt. And restore America to its much deserving prosperous potential.
If that sounds like a pipe dream to you--then I'm afraid you are hopeless. --Meaning: I don't think, holding that view, you could have any hope.
If you put the same hope in Bernie, as many put in the hope and change of Barry; you'll be equally, if not more, disappointed.
**Knew nothing of Thomas More. Looks like he partnered with Henry VIII to Defend the 7 Sacraments against Martin Luther. Only fourteen years thereafter, King Henry had him beheaded for not blessing his divorce from Catherine of Aragon. Betrayed by his benefactor--sort of reminds me of how Barrack Hussein Obama betrayed the blacks who put him in office.
Years have gone by since the founding of this country. There never was another one like it. And probably, after it is gone, there will never be another. But human nature hasn't changed. It's a long discussion, but it is this human nature that is better taken into account in the Democratic Republic we call America than in any other system the world has ever known. Much of its founding was rooted in Bacon, Locke, Hobbes, & Descartes. But the largest portion of its foundation is the Bible. A passing glance at the Preamble to the Constitution, or any of the other founding documents establishes this truth.
So, in answer to your question: no. Most of the problems we see in America today are in fact results of straying too far afield from our foundations. A return to those principles that made this country the model which every other country around the globe wished to emulate, will "right the ship". Just like at work. When things start going wrong, or efficiency is suffering; the best thing to do is return to basics. That's what football teams do when game-plans get too complex and cumbersome. The coach will come in the locker room and say, "Fellas, this is a football."
None of those older countries you mentioned were founded the way America was. They have nothing to go back to but serfdom and feudal lords. You mentioned that maybe, "their not smart enough to realize failure." Care to take a guess at how many times France, for example, has been occupied? How many different conquerors have laid claim to Austria? Take a look at Ireland and Scotland--they still are not certain if they are sovereign, or if they still fall under another crown. And--wherever they're at; it could change tomorrow. Is Australia in charge of its own destiny? Not on your life.
So, not change to socialism.
Change back to basics. We the people. Not, We the government.
What Actually Happens When You Raise the Minimum Wage
http://www.valuesandcapitalism.com/what-actually-happens-when-you-raise-the-minimum-wage/
I'm sure you're talking about the American Indians. Pull out a few old history books. Not the new "doctored" ones. The old ones. The ones that reported the incidents closer to the time of their occurrence. You'll find out pretty quick, it wasn't a one-sided event.
And, not to justify it, but relative to the rest of the globe, there has been very little blood shed on American soil.
treehumper
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- Ridgefield, NJ
Freedom in the US was not for all. It was for a select few and the founding fathers believed that was ok. American society has and continues to strive to recreate the class structures that you rail against. It was based on the shift from landed gentry to industrialism and now to the control of capital. The end result though is the same, those that have, built it on the backs of the rest. You see America through a rose colored filter. That its the greatest freest country is bunk. Canada is freer. I grew up and lived there for the majority of my life. Should I move there? Hmmmm.... my wife likes it here since this is where she grew up.
If you were to truly go back to the basics that "All men are created equal" then maybe you'd be on the right track. That has never been America....
If you were to truly go back to the basics that "All men are created equal" then maybe you'd be on the right track. That has never been America....
You guys want to hold the crowding out of the Indians and slavery against America...and that's fine. Both great examples of how America differs from other countries. Not in the fact that we made mistakes (I don't know of a country, or an individual for that matter, that hasn't made mistakes), but how we responded once confronted with the injustice of those mistakes.
First a reminder: there was lots of objections by Christians to both.
Second: Lots of "old white guys" voluntarily gave their lives fighting against both of those injustices. Tell me of another country where that took place!?
Third: We've made untold reparations to both of these groups in the last 100 years. And are still making them. Tell me of another country where that took place!?
In almost every other country around the world, those who lose are enslaved, banished, or exterminated.
First a reminder: there was lots of objections by Christians to both.
Second: Lots of "old white guys" voluntarily gave their lives fighting against both of those injustices. Tell me of another country where that took place!?
Third: We've made untold reparations to both of these groups in the last 100 years. And are still making them. Tell me of another country where that took place!?
In almost every other country around the world, those who lose are enslaved, banished, or exterminated.
