Girdling roots is it worth it for this tree?

Leroy · Jul 17, 2018

It looks like it has a chance to make a go, depending on the root situation. 3 bills for rcx though, on that? I guess we under bid those all the time... I wouldn't worry about the tree falling over, as long as there's some big roots left when it's all said and done!

wiz9 · Jul 17, 2018

what is RCX?

southsoundtree · Jul 17, 2018

root crown excavation, with stem-girdling root pruning. Check out youtube.

brand name air excavation tools, Airspade and Supersonic Airknife/ air knife, I think.

I've done a bunch with hand tools, garden hose and nozzle, and a large, homeowner air compressor. Working many trees at my new house over from the same situations.

flyingsquirrel25 · Jul 17, 2018

wiz9 said:
I ran into this posting as I was trying to figure out if the tree in front of our house is worth saving.

It's a Norway Maple, lost about 40% of leafs. However one of the dead parts sprouted this summer, a few branches.

I have a tree company that said they would come and for $300 dig around and cut some of the roots to give it breathing space and get nourishment back in. Not with an air spade, they plan on doing it with a shovel. Either way... We would love to save the tree but are hesitant.

Is it worth it?
Is it too far gone to try and bring it back?
Is it worth trying?

Will it fall over if we try?

Thoughts????

Looking at the pictures there are several problems with the root system here. It looks to be mostly a depth issue (planted too deep). Most of the time girdling roots on maples are able to be seen without any digging. That being said, being deep may have put this area well below the soil line. In our area $300 for this type of unknown work is a deal but... is it worth it??? I’m not convinced. The dead portion will probably no recover, so you will have an added expense of pruning that out. So it’s like the ‘88 Honda Civic that needs brakes, tie rods and tires. Where do you stop putting $$ into the dying classic and replace it?
As for it falling over, anything is possible, though probably unlikely. It will also depend on who is cutting if they have a sense not to whack all the roots off. Let us know what they find if you decide to dig!

Daniel · Jul 17, 2018

Calling that "classic" is generous... I'd say you're SOL with that tree...Probably too big and too many girdling roots to save, and it has structural problems wit the co-doms and one dead side that will rot into the other etc...
I'd recommend starting another tree in its place, as this one will never become a large mature shade tree... If you love the tree and don't mind watching it die a slow death though, spend the $ and plant a replacement nearby.

Daniel · Jul 17, 2018

DID YOU REALLY NAIL A SIGN TO THAT TREE?

guymayor · Jul 19, 2018

That 88 Honda Civic will not appreciate in value after it is restored, but the tree can.

I'd take the deal if they throw in the pruning; looks like it can be done from the ground.

KevinS · Jul 23, 2018

flyingsquirrel25 said:
2.5 years ago I began working on 67 red maples in a development behind my house that have the very same problem (100% girdled). The president of the homeowners association didn't have the money to do air spading and root pruning but we were able to come to an agreement to reduction prune the trees in hopes to reduce the trunk growth thus hopefully prolonging the life of the trees.
The theory comes from Ed Gillman's research on reduction pruning where if you reduce a limb, over time you can reduce its size in comparison to the trunk. I'm just doing that reduction over the entire tree. We are due back in for another round of pruning this coming year. All the trees are looking good, except one that was struck by lightning.
They know they have a problem, they know what the ultimate outcome will eventually be, they just don't want that "eventually" to be soon.

I’m familiar with the limb reduction theory but how does crown reduction and trunk growth and root growth equal out?
Does it effect trunk diameter more or root diameter expansion more or...?

I’m not sure if I can see the practical side of the theory when there are so many variables in play compared to say limb vs trunk

flyingsquirrel25 · Jul 23, 2018

KevinS said:
I’m familiar with the limb reduction theory but how does crown reduction and trunk growth and root growth equal out?
Does it effect trunk diameter more or root diameter expansion more or...?

I’m not sure if I can see the practical side of the theory when there are so many variables in play compared to say limb vs trunk

Kevin great questions! Being of a non scientific brain, I was stupid and didn’t do the measurements before the first pruning cycle to definitively say what we did slowed trunk growth. I didn’t even think that, at some point, someone would ask me to prove our practices were having a desired effect. What we are seeing is less storm damage (an added bonus) and what seems to be a lower mortality rate as compared other trees in our area. But as you said there are so many factors that come into play within the populations we are seeing.

Unfortunately this population wasn’t in an area I could make a true scientific experiment where you have a control, and several pruning treatments.

In my mind the reduction would slow both trunk and root expansion. Even if we only effected the truck we would still be having a positive effect on tree longevity. What the measurements are or would have been, I don’t know. I can only look back and see where I could have put a little time into making it easier to prove the theory. And to be completely honest I wasn’t sure they would ask for the second round of pruning (with how often HOA boards change around here).

Great questions though and I wish I had better answers!

flyingsquirrel25 · Jul 23, 2018

guymayor said:
That 88 Honda Civic will not appreciate in value after it is restored, but the tree can.

I'd take the deal if they throw in the pruning; looks like it can be done from the ground.

But in restoring that civic you have new parts, paint and running gear, maybe even a snappy rice burner exhaust.

With a Norway maple... you still have the same old moderately invasive, ehhh tree that is stressed and will probably continue to be stressed.

I’m all about saving trees. We work on some really cool large trees that most “tree guys” would just knock down and collect a couple grand. But in the end it’s all about what the client wants to spend their disposable cash on.

KevinS · Jul 23, 2018

flyingsquirrel25 said:
Kevin great questions! Being of a non scientific brain, I was stupid and didn’t do the measurements before the first pruning cycle to definitively say what we did slowed trunk growth. I didn’t even think that, at some point, someone would ask me to prove our practices were having a desired effect. What we are seeing is less storm damage (an added bonus) and what seems to be a lower mortality rate as compared other trees in our area. But as you said there are so many factors that come into play within the populations we are seeing.

Unfortunately this population wasn’t in an area I could make a true scientific experiment where you have a control, and several pruning treatments.

In my mind the reduction would slow both trunk and root expansion. Even if we only effected the truck we would still be having a positive effect on tree longevity. What the measurements are or would have been, I don’t know. I can only look back and see where I could have put a little time into making it easier to prove the theory. And to be completely honest I wasn’t sure they would ask for the second round of pruning (with how often HOA boards change around here).

Great questions though and I wish I had better answers!

I would think if this was to be a controlled study it’d have to be a Christmas tree farm of pines and a pine plantation.
According to the theory the Christmas trees roots should grow much less than the plantation pine. Of course of equal age, location....etc

flyingsquirrel25 · Jul 24, 2018

KevinS said:
I would think if this was to be a controlled study it’d have to be a Christmas tree farm of pines and a pine plantation.
According to the theory the Christmas trees roots should grow much less than the plantation pine. Of course of equal age, location....etc

Yea this would have been a PR nightmare. "Why did her tree get pruned and mine didn’t"? It’s that kind of a development!

guymayor · Jul 24, 2018

After 15+ years of advocacy for girdling root removal, I'm seeing more potential in some cases in scratching away the bark at the girdling points to encourage grafting. That could be done in a red maple population: Do it heavy on 1/3, light on 1/3, leave 1/3 alone...?

Your early results from crown pruning sound good, but how sustainable is it? Plus, minimizing the crown minimizes the benefits of young trees, right?

JD3000 · Jul 24, 2018

I'll try that on a linden U saw today. One massive SGR

flyingsquirrel25 · Jul 25, 2018

guymayor said:
After 15+ years of advocacy for girdling root removal, I'm seeing more potential in some cases in scratching away the bark at the girdling points to encourage grafting. That could be done in a red maple population: Do it heavy on 1/3, light on 1/3, leave 1/3 alone...?

Your early results from crown pruning sound good, but how sustainable is it? Plus, minimizing the crown minimizes the benefits of young trees, right?

The graft treatment is something that could potentially be used in this situation. My biggest fear would be the unhappy neighbors complaining that I’m not trying my best to save their tree.

As I mentioned I don’t know how to substantiate the results as it was not intended as a reasearch project. These particular trees are about maxed out on their potential street tree benefit they will ever provide. They already provide pretty good shade/canopy. Some are 40’ +/- feet tall and grown pretty close to one another. And most are 16”-20” give or take a few inches in diameter. The worst minimizing effect is on the street side where for safety reasons they have to be cut back/reduced from the road to allow clearance of fire trucks and other communities services,

tedantle · Aug 18, 2019

Since my problem is similar, I'll start here.

This tree is approximately 15 years old. I have lived here for 10 years. Noticed thinning crown this year. After a little dirt removal I have found the roots are girdled. Should I have it "air spaded" and repaired or is it too old... too far gone?

Thank you,

Ted