Fired today!

When I receive my seperation paper copy I will have written evidence and will contact tufc. I have a video and pics of the damage the rope caused to the tree by running it around it as a riderect. I am also going to contact the ROW specialist for TVA Mike Nance. OSHA seems like a good idea also as they still don't have rescue bag or any training procedure in place for an aerial rescue and chap use is promoted but my ex boss never used them. Winter is as always a bad time to find a job in the tree industry. I am going to contact my old boss at Wolf tomorrow. If that doesn't work out I will contact Sam at Cortese. If not that I've heard Brad is a cool guy at Petree. Thanks for the support and words of encouragement. Got to get back into residential work I hate utility. The entire mindset of most everyone in the utility arb world is jacked up. All they want is production no preservation. I said "most"; not all. I've met a few guys that care. The other climber I worked with was one but he needed a job more than I did. He is young also but has his mind in the right place. Thanks again guys!
 
Good on ya! I walked away from a job last month because of my boss. The guys did the right work, it was just because of him. Got a job immediately and have been extremely happy. I know there are plenty of companies near you that appreciate your stance on what's right. You'll get a good job and be more satisfied soon I'm sure.
 
[ QUOTE ]
When I receive my seperation paper copy I will have written evidence and will contact tufc. I have a video and pics of the damage the rope caused to the tree by running it around it as a redirect.

[/ QUOTE ]This act not only wrecked the tree, but did the rope no good either. Are pulleys and slings beyond their budget?

Along with OSHA, each state has a Utilities Commission. ;)

re anti-topping: getting alternatives written, codifying proper reduction pruning, is making progress. The major difficulty is terminology--"heading cut" when you think about it is vague and beside the point. The effort to revise the standard will include with the suggestion that "heading cut" be set aside. Scary I know but it looks necessary from here.
 
Karma....my ex boss was fired today..my buddy there text me this morning and told me. That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. I hate hearing when someone looses a job, usually. However a hack like that who was harming trees for no reason I believe was justified. Funny the way things play out.
 
There is always justice!!!
Anyway, topping tree or spiking for pruning is not a good job... So it's just for you an extraordinary opportunity to find a company where they respect trees :-)
I own a company and I'm definitely anti-topping. Often the customers thinks the more branch are down, the best job you did... It's totally false... I take time to explain them it would be better to prune just the necessary and not more... In 80% that works, customers change their minds... But I have to pay bills, so if they really want topping and nothing else, I'm doing it :-(
But I never sent a treeworker with his spikes to prune a tree, even for a cheap work!!!
Anyway, I wish you good luck!

P.S. : Plz excuse my poor English, I'm a French guy ;-)
 
I don't feel bad one bit for the guy. If he had listened for a change instead of running his inexperienced mouth, he would most likely still have a job and would become a better person. It is almost like he and some of the other guys think it is cool to have no regard for trees or even other living things. Just because we are clearing trees for utility, doesnt mean we shouldn't try to keep damage minimal. If not for the trees, do it for the people that own the land.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Are pulleys and slings beyond their budget?

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I see it, a sling and pulley is about the same price as the bull rope that now needs to be replaced. Even if they had a pulley, this guy insisted on using a chain instead of a strap or sling. Where is the logic in that?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are pulleys and slings beyond their budget?

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I see it, a sling and pulley is about the same price as the bull rope that now needs to be replaced.

[/ QUOTE ]

As if that will happen!
tongue.gif


Malin, what do you mean by "topping"?
 
[ QUOTE ]
I was terminated today because I refused to spike a tree to remove some broken limbs from another tree that struck it. My boss and I got into a pissing contest and I flat out told him "they are my spikes and ill do what I want with them." The broken limbs were about twenty feet up and I told him I would set a line and prune the limbs. He got pissed off and started telling me that I would do what he told me to do. Well some other word got thrown back and forth and when he told me fukc you I told him he can go home and talk to his kids like that but not me. He actually wrote on my separation papers insubordination for refusing to spike a tree.

[/ QUOTE ]

ratherbclimbing in his ethical sense, tried to protect a tree. Then he got stuck in the hierarchical authority of who gets whom to push around. He lost, got pink-slipped rather instantly as the problem, and we're asked to comment on justice.

I found an old post here at treebuzz (9/22/08) that I'm reprinting for two reasons; the first, that it speaks directly to our ethical responsibilities as claimed professionals. The second, is that I'm deciding how to present my own ethical anger to this group and trying to sort things out. This is not a tease; I need time to assemble facts and allow people a chance to respond.

The excerpt below is from me at the ISA forums


bob

-----------------------------------

[ QUOTE ]
from the ISA Forum

Why Prune? 2

bobw@enteract.com

Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:22:17 -0500



I attended the first student conference this Spring at Steven's Point where Alex Shigo talked about the New Arboriculture--the things yet to come. Alex spoke of it with a fervor and sincerity that was powerful indeed. This same sense of the new era is what I hope to talk about and champion in the things I write.

It would seem I also need to make some things clear. My views on pruning don't involve any loss of work because pruning will be reduced. In fact, there will soon be expanded work and greater revenue potentials beyond the present preoccupation with pruning and chipping as we have known them. We will still have pruning, and chain saws will still be sold; but there also will be a new additional series of techniques and tree care concepts that are more responsive to the tree's strengths and vulnerabilities.

Certainly we should be concerned about feeding our families and paying the mortgage, but it doesn't have to be done under the rationalizations of the mythologies and misunderstandings we now have about trees. When we claim to be professionals, there is an expectation that we will make a meaningful difference by our interventions--and that difference is supposed to be made on behalf of trees, not just our wallets!


Speaking to the student's concerns about ethics at the conference, I'm saddened by the wide range of problems facing them:

At one end, is the guy who orders his crew to prune and fertilize a dead tree. He plans on just stealing a little extra now from a naive customer before he comes back next year to sigh that it was too late and take the tree down. Does the fact that the actions are centered around a tree, and were done by arborists, somehow make it more tolerable than straight-out sneaking into the woman's house and stealing from her purse? Does saying that this scam goes to pay the crew in a lean week make it ok? Well, if you plan on feeding your kids this way, either by doing it or by not speaking up, then we have nothing to say to each other.

Is that too harsh? They're just little thefts and little lies, and everybody does it; and anyway, after all it's only a dead tree.


At their student conference, the students talked intensely about ethics and those sorts of issues. I was really impressed by their fire and honesty, but how long before we burn it out of them? How long before they too just watch and keep their mouths shut while the big schmooze goes on, and they take their paychecks with hardly a gulp, or they learn themselves to artfully pad the intervention?

That's one end of the problems.


At the other end, if I go to do a job and my ideas of tree ills and remedies are magical and poorly grounded in science, or I don't bother to learn because I really do know most everything, should I get a hefty fee for my work?

Maybe my ignorance is honest, in the sense that I don't periodically look into myself and assess my efforts as a professional, or keep up with the latest information, but does that justify my cash expectation between myself and my customers and make it a fair one where they received good services for what they pay? Were their trees really any better off for my being there?

Is that too unkind? They're just little over-payments and I meant well, and everybody does it; and anyway, after all they're only trees.

(If the guys at either end of these practices found their pediatrician did something wrong, they would be screaming malpractice--and running for a lawyer. But their hypocrisy should be deferred for another discussion.)


Greed is easy to condemn. Honest ignorance is a much more difficult problem.

I started off talking about pruning and ended up talking about ethics. For me they are linked and I've said before that trees are my clients, not just the guy with a checkbook.

If the only tool I have is a saw, then all problems will be logs.

The new arboriculure Shigo predicts will have different answers and methods that broaden our capabilities for effective and valuable intervention.


Bob Wulkowicz

[/ QUOTE ]
 
There is the con artiste in any profession/industry Bob. Politicians first come to mind. And, yes, conning through lack of obtained knowledge is just as distasteful although maybe seldom illegal or litigatable. "What are they doing wrong? Is it just YOUR opinion that what they are doing is wrong?"

Just yesterday a ho called me and said she had a tree to be removed that was clogging her sewer lines and had to be removed to prevent future expensive excavation and repair and get the plumber's guarantee. We were highly recommended by an old friend of mine's mother, he a lawyer, who we had done a lot of work for as well.

Arrived and was told it had to be completed by Mon. and "sorry but we just found about you". I quoted a very low price for winter and friend's reference reasons. I was told I was much higher than another company. I respectfully asked "do you mind telling me who" as this was a very large tree and included stump removal and stump clean up.

As I suspected it was a company I had called the police about a week earlier for canvassing my town which was in violation of local ordinance. In 2008 we had a hurricane come through my town and in the aftermath some companies from Dayton, Ohio showed up from 55 miles from here. Nothing in itself wrong with that but there was a rash of unethical dealings then and since then.

Ash borer was claimed on maple trees said to have to be removed. Trees were knocked into other trees and houses causing much damage, fast exit ensued. Stumps were ground partially and collected on and when grindings were removed Mr. HO discovered the scam. Terrible pruning and treatments were being paid for leaving disfigured trees all over town. Parades of solicitors interrupting ho's with no proof of insurance or knowledge of contracts. etc. etc.

Some of these companies, finding no work through ineptitude and complaints (town never prosecuted as it was always said to be a civil matter) proceeded to often just change the names on their trucks and/or operate under many different company names. Still do.

The list could go on but not likely a pediatrician is going to come down 55 miles from Dayton and begin to bamboozal clients as in these scenarios. What do we do? Not sure but believe me...things are improving to immeasurable lengths with our standards from various orgs. and credentials. I have watched this stuff as long or longer than anyone.

Good end of the story (for me)...Upon learning who this low bidder was and remember watching (last week) this company go down a dead end short street and back into a driveway with a chipper and truck to simulate an actual job that never was ("we are working next door...)...then multiple people got out of that and 2 other trucks and doors were hit and cards dispensed to HO's responding to banged on storm doors...

I called the coppers. Didn't have my cell so drove home a few blocks and when I returned, the whole operation, poof, had disappeared, lock, stock and barrel...in a matter of maybe 5 minutes. This was this operation...

http://www.merchantcircle.com/business/Care-A-.Lot.Tree.Service.937-322-0918/review/read?cid=1559282

I gave the lady ho a copy of this printed from my puter and left and my phone was ringing when I walked in the door with confirmation that I had the job at my price.
 
It's funny where and from who the truth is exposed. I was watching Terry Jones from Monty Python being interviewed. He's written some history books and another following 911 on the subject. He told a tale from prior to the first Gulf War. He was reading Weaponds Today, an insiders magazine for the arms industry. The title was "Thank God for Saddam". The author described how he hoped radical islam would replace communism following perestroika. Those company's stocks did really well following 911.

Doesn't make fertilizing trees seem so bad compared to bombing cities for the purpose of making more bombs. It's starting to look like Iran would be a good market or that pesky bronze birch borer.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's funny where and from who the truth is exposed. I was watching Terry Jones from Monty Python being interviewed. He's written some history books and another following 911 on the subject. He told a tale from prior to the first Gulf War. He was reading Weaponds Today, an insiders magazine for the arms industry. The title was "Thank God for Saddam". The author described how he hoped radical islam would replace communism following perestroika. Those company's stocks did really well following 911.

Doesn't make fertilizing trees seem so bad compared to bombing cities for the purpose of making more bombs. It's starting to look like Iran would be a good market or that pesky bronze birch borer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shigo had death threats (I know as I was around him during this period and he disallowed recording for a while) for exposing the folly of tree paint. Hey lots of businesses and families relied on the revenue generated by this product.
 
It's hard to follow the turn in the thread. The original question was about being told to tolerate and inflict actual physical damage beyond the scope of work. If there's a point or a connection to the ethical anger over the extreme hypothetical scenarios described--dead tree care etc., I'm missing it.

Re the ethical issues treevet dealt with, well done!

Re boreality's tangent, the power of the military-industrial complex blinds us all with shock and awe. Their delivery is so glaring, ya gotta wear shades.
Just try following the budget process; a nightmare of scaremongering.

Welcome Malin--what does "topping" mean in France? Are there standards for pruning in France? O and are you near Orleans?

And rbc, since your old boss was fired, doesn't that open the door for you to be rehired?
 
Apparently not. I asked the next guy in the chain of command and he said no the seperation paper was sent to corporate and I was black listed. No rehire. I didn't really want to go back but with bills and all I would have for a week or so. Til I found another job. I've communicated with my old boss at Wolf Tree and he said he could probably get me on with a utility crew there until spring hits and they need me back on residential. Ill find out Monday if that plays out. Until then I've done a side job collected a small sum from that. A good friend of mine Tyler owns a construction and excavating company so I go and clear lots for him occasionally. He prefers to have me there because less trees have to be removed if you use a chainsaw vs a trackhoe! I also end up making him more money when I show up and see a hazard tree over there driveway with a big dead limb that needs removed. Yesterday I convinced a homeowner to trim this hickory back off his house instead of removing because it was beating his shingles loose. Tyler didn't loose anything on that he charged him the same price and the tree stayed. Thanks for all the advice and encouragement again. When I came home that day after being fired I was dreading telling my girlfriend. Thought there was going to be an arguement. Was preparing to listen to her rant about how I should have kept my mouth shut and I would still have a job. To my surprise she told me if this had been a previous boyfriend she would have been concerned but she knows that I'm not lazy and very determined. She gets more upset with me for doing side jobs on my days off. I will always stand up for what I feel is right. I'm very opinionated and knowledgeable. I constantly read and strive to learn. My gf calls me mr google. Anyways I'm glad I no longer work at that company I just wish I could have made an impact while I was there.
 
Not compromising your standards makes an impact. Telling someone that they are wrong...when they are...makes an impact.

Feel good about your righteousness. If more people stood up for what is right the world would be a better place. Soon, the wrong doers would loose their power and control. i realize this is a pipe dream but it is a goal to strive for.

Too often people are trapped by economics and can't stand up. This is not a criticism of their situation. Its a criticism of the hierarchy in so many organizations.

You had better have given your girlfriend a big hug...if not, I'll come and give you a big kick in the butt!
 
I also contacted Wes today via email and told him about my situation. He asked me if it was okay to send my email on to ISA and I said it was fine. He commented on how he like to stir up the pot now and again. Hopefully if nothing else this company will stop their bad practices. I assumed that TVA would have a CA on staff coordinating with this company or make sure that they had one on staff. Anytime I mentioned ANSI standards or OSHA policy I was told by my boss that we weren't aborist. I use to respond that I may not be certified but I consider myself an aborist. I know that his opinion didn't represent the entire company. I was told anything that would get me to quit asking questions. I asked about a sling and pulley and was told we could work without it. Kept complaining about not having an aerial rescue bag or another climber and gear in case I was in need of being rescued. Pretty scary to think I would have to wait on the fire dept to show up realize they couldn't get a ladder truck to me up the mountain side. Then what, wait on the polcie helicopter or national guard to show up. They had a safety meeting every morning. Nothing important or useful was ever mentioned. I asked about EHAP training, aerial rescue training, and first aid and cpr certification. I read somewhere that so many employees should be first aid certified with in 3 months of being hired on working around utility lines. I asked about all this and got no response. We were told our minimum approach distance was 4 ft for the 161kv. I thought all not certified in EHAP had to stay back 10ft? I think I really am going to contact OSHA since I'm sure they aren't operating under certain guidelines. They just started a new incentive when I left that if you could get from one tower to another in a day and maintain that for two weeks then they would give overtime. This is impossible for almost every tower. We are climbing up and down hill all day through thorns and briars. This has been grown over for so long that the only thing that is going to happen is someone is going to be going 90mph and get someone hurt or worse. The turnover rate for this company is ridiculous. Me and my ex boss were fired the same week and two of my buddies there quit on Friday. One guy left on that crew. The crazy thing is both of the two guys that quit left them for less money. One took a 50cent drop the other almost 3 dollars. Tell me that doesn't say something about what kinda place it is to work for.

Tom I showed her what you posted and she said you made her day. If you're ever in knoxville she'll make sure you have a home cooked meal. Even though I lost my job I feel like I gained a lot of pride in myself for sticking it to the man and not the tree.
 

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom