"Extreme Rigging"

Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

That's assuming Butch (self-proclaimed old school wizard) can tie a rigging block repeatidly and successfully.
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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Very funny.

Still hasn't been a safe and efficient alternative posted.

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What aspects of accepted/approved rigging practices are you calling unsafe and inefficient? The use of high strength, energy absorbing ropes and slings, blocks/pulleys, and friction control devices?
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

ok - well, sometimes after slicing through a giant piece of wood it would be more convenient and practical to just slide it off the spar to a safe/secure drop zone. With the ball bearings blown into the kerf this would be a whole lot easier! i have taken dowels up for this - but never straws loaded with ball bearings :)

peace,

matthew
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

4ft bar on an 088/3120 - or even a 3ft bar on a 066/394. There are few pros I know who can handle a saw this awkward accurately in the horizontal on spurs. So this is definitely not a technique for novices! I don't associate trees this complex with novices! Which is another reason for using this technique - avoids the awkwardness of cutting a proper notch of this diameter - the elbows can stay close in at the lower ribs. There seems to be an oversight of what working with timber this size is like
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I think there are also differences in the way businesses are set up typically in the US compared to UK; I get the impression some of you have big lifting equipment and big chippers and usually easy access? Thats just not the case over here. We have poor access. There is no point having gear like that unless you have a regular municipal contract - most of the time it wouldn't get used because it won't fit through the tightbends and narrow roads, and if it does you can't park it. The example is a big backyard tree with narrow roads and little drop zone, but typically a prize lawn and other expensive property. In my area, steep hillsides with roads below are typical. Thats a lot of compounded risks. Most experienced riggers I've updated over here immediately see the benefits of the technique once we run the risks, numbers and options.
Everything has to be cut up and carried out. The sort of jobs that take 3 men between 3 and 5 days. Its normal over here.

Also, the trees don't have metres and metres of wood of that consistent diameter - its usually many forks and burrs/bulges at all angles for the last 25ft max. So little rope length for energy absorption or distance for fall of long sections. Plus little opportunity to place a sling where you might like. I'll take some pics when I next see a typical example. Quite often its just a few cuts to bring the pole down to a safe felling height, but those few pieces can run away at great speed into traffic/targets.

This is what is meant by 'extreme' - it can't be done in the usual way, and you can't risk free dropping lumps or even chogs.

If I was worried that 'experienced climbers' might laugh at me, I'd probably be dead by now doing things I know are dangerous - I've got bags full of wrecked equipment from such climbers. And I've seen them have unnecessary accidents, and cause road traffic accidents, because they didn't think things through properly.

There are 5 climbers I knew personally pushing up daisies, and others who were also mechanical engineers. All died rigging trees.

Run the numbers.
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Laz,
There is nothing remotely complex about the method you've you've described, which Ive tried to highlight as a positive aspect, you in turn have chosen to reject this. It only requires average climber strength, correct work positioning as well as the staying power to see the job through. Where is the complexity ?

I also think it is unfair to insinuate that because 'experienced climbers' as you've labeled them/us dont agree with you on this, we/they must be undertaking unsafe work practices.

Your constant enphasis on numbers is also becoming tiresome. The fact that you knew people who died whilst rigging trees, although tragic and a warning to be heeded, is not that relevant to the very much 'still alive' riggers in this debate who have obviously made the correct 'judgement calls' and not 'numerical calculations' many times with great success!

One could suggest that danger is subjective and dangerous people operate within a broader 'danger threshhold'. The forsight of one individual can be completely different than that of another. This forsight/interpretation also varies within the individual on a given day, sometimes due to internal factors such as tiredness, health, mood, pressure, ect. You seem to put no emphasis on these influences instead prefering to constantly refer to numbers as the ultimate factor and solution. You come across as an experienced and well informed practitioner but also an idealistic, institutionalised individual who has lost touch with the creative aspects of the job. Likewise as you said to me previously, not a critisism, just a general observation. No hard feelings. Good luck with the system, and I really hope you develop and establish the method as an excepted practice rather than 'just a theory'. Intresting debate but that really is it for me. Cheers.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I'm going on thirty years in the biz and the only dead climbers I know killed themselves with firearms.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Yes, there are many additional subjective factors to be considered as you point out - tiredness etc.

But there are objective factors that must be respected, such as the forces generated. Our 'sticking point' seems to be that you prefer to rely on your intuition, as I used to. I still use my intuition, but pay respect to the physics.

Like I said before, pro-active safety is more than an absence of an accident - that may be nothing more than luck.

It is this attitude in general, that holds back professionalism in Arboriculture, compared to other work at height.

It is interesting how you see me as 'institutionalised' and 'well informed', but out of touch with 'creative aspects of the job'. I would expect those who truly know me of old and as well as now, to know I am a rebel against institutionalised dogma, in a pragmatic, creative and practicable way. I've been lynched many times because of it, by climbers and safety nazis alike, yet my 'ideals' have helped pave the way for what is now considered normal climbing/rigging practice - so maybe that will help explain my perserverance.

If I've stated one thing that turned a light on for just one person - then thats good enough for me.
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Maybe the title of the artical could have been "alternative rigging" then no need to justify anything too anybody??

There are many alternatives to what we do and the more ideas out there the better, however out there the ideas may be.

I've been known to (on large removals, mostly sequoias, in small sloping gardens) climb onto the pole, and split the 7-8 foot rings with an axe, and then throw the blocks down into a drop zone. Then climb back over on to my system, move down and cut another ring. Better than chucking 7-8foot rings off down a hill side.

Thats not extreme rigging, its just another method that worked but I wouldn't really recomend it.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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I'm going on thirty years in the biz and the only dead climbers I know killed themselves with firearms.

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u and your buddies really must stop getting drunk and playing russian roulette u know
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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I've been known to (on large removals, mostly sequoias, in small sloping gardens) climb onto the pole, and split the 7-8 foot rings with an axe, and then throw the blocks down into a drop zone. Then climb back over on to my system, move down and cut another ring.

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mate, thats bloody crazy!!
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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I'm going on thirty years in the biz and the only dead climbers I know killed themselves with firearms.

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u and your buddies really must stop getting drunk and playing russian roulette u know

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Actually, they became meth heads and committed suicide. One was a friend, the other I didn't really know.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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I've been known to (on large removals, mostly sequoias, in small sloping gardens) climb onto the pole, and split the 7-8 foot rings with an axe, and then throw the blocks down into a drop zone. Then climb back over on to my system, move down and cut another ring.

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mate, thats bloody crazy!!

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Not as crazy as drilling bolts in all the way up a tree!!
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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I've been known to (on large removals, mostly sequoias, in small sloping gardens) climb onto the pole, and split the 7-8 foot rings with an axe, and then throw the blocks down into a drop zone. Then climb back over on to my system, move down and cut another ring.

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mate, thats bloody crazy!!

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Isn't it just !! Have you got any photo's Rupe :) ??
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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I've been known to (on large removals, mostly sequoias, in small sloping gardens) climb onto the pole, and split the 7-8 foot rings with an axe, and then throw the blocks down into a drop zone. Then climb back over on to my system, move down and cut another ring.

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mate, thats bloody crazy!!

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Not as crazy as drilling bolts in all the way up a tree!!

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u may have a point, still i'd love to see ya doing that!
that'd make a good ariel rescus scenario maybe? man stuck on a spar with an axe in his foot
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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Isn't it just !! Have you got any photo's Rupe :) ??
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I'll have to trawl through the old shoe boxes and see, definately pre digital.

I'll look tomorrow.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

the one thing I see in the rigging is putting laggs in and droping huge lumber. Ok persay something goes aray and now you have metal flyin allover and huge chunk of wood comin down. The idea is good but testing has to be done on different spiceis of trees to see what will do and what will be a concern.

Butch I am sorry about you friends but reading through this thread I was wodering when you where gonna chime in to what did I win.
With all cocepts out there I would like to see this one upclose to really appresseiate it.
The reson I say this cause I have seen houses destroyed by tonados and the base boards are still held by laggs and have seen other houses where they were just missed and the laggs are busted, different forces at the right time and things are going wrong and things are flying.
Nate
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Thats Riggsdiculous ! read the whole post , you gotta to be kidding me . Seriuously , this is nuts . I'm all up for ideas , but there is a line.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

What a thread!
Lots of basicly friendly constructive disscussion.

About this 'ball bearing' idea; Most trees are either soft, dead to the point of being mushy, sticky from sap, etc.
so a ball bearing that could fit into a straw would have to be pretty small.
Those ball bearings would just sink into the wood and do nothing whatsoever.
Even if the wood is hard, small ball bearings still would sink into the wood if the wood was big and heavy enough that a climber would want some kind of mechanical aid in pushing them off the stick.
What most of us do is to allow chips to build up behind the bar of the saw as we are cutting. That helps with not binding the saw and with pushing the chunk off of the trunk
And dont forget about using a small wedge.
I know Ken Johnson well. He is a good guy and has a great sense of humor.
Are you sure Ken is'nt just pulling your leg to see how far the Euro crowd will take this insane idea?

I mean think about it seriously for a minute, blowing ball bearings outta a straw? And what would happen if you inhaled at the wrong time?

That would give me a real good laugh seeing a climber doing that in the tree.
:)
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Hello Riggs - short and sweet as usual.

How would you do it (I'm talking sling & pulley & rope specifics)?
 

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