"Extreme Rigging"

Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Thanks for the history lesson Riggs. There are many good lowering devices but with crap frames/mounting that seem to cope ok. My concerns are the rope/sling/block.

But I'm still waiting for the details on what gear you use that gives you such confidence no one would get hurt chunking down 4ft diameter hardwoods? that way we can have an objective debate.

Don't you have specific legislation like we do that makes it easy to get prosecuted for not implementing control measures accurately and objectively?

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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

My calculations on a euc piece 4' dia and 3' long is 1350KG or 2970lbs.

1' pieces would weigh 450kg or around 1000lbs.

I like the ball bearing idea.
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

"Don't you have specific legislation like we do that makes it easy to get prosecuted for not implementing control measures accurately and objectively?"

Land of the free , home of the brave.

Now you're saying you can get locked up for how you lower a piece ? I've taken down a lot of trees in Pennsylvania, for the past twenty five years , a rope and block has never done me or anyone under me any harm. If it's not broke why fix it? I don't mean to give a history lesson either, I just want you to know I do have an open mind I'm not just a ball buster.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

That's like my old neighbor , got no teeth. Lazurus , do what you got to do , drill holes all day long , just get the tree down, Please.

That's what I wanted to say , what I really meant was that is interesting. Thanks.

Please and Thanks , you gotta love wine.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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You guys add a smile to my day all the time! Thanks.

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Hmmmm.....like two comedians on stage duelling with large wet tuna fish, me thinks!
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Alves, I expect a bottle of Johnnie is as effective as a gut full of painkillers - are you recovered from your injuries yet?
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Lazarus,

Just because you've got two lags available for each cut doesn't mean you have to use them both, right? The lower of the two lags will have to bear double the forces of the top one. So why not use a block on a sling instead of a block on a shackle on a eye lag? You can place the block significantly higher on the spar, so the distance between the top of the sheave and the point of attachment on the piece can be greatly lessened. A lot of extra time, on 12" pieces, though.

But you are right, standard butt hitching may not be safe on some huge pieces. I thought about this alot back in the 80's, when I used to butt hitch 4 foot cottonwood pieces off a massive steel block on a huge sling. Aside from wearing myself out setting the block each time, I began to wonder if the weak link in the system wasn't the tree itself. (Talking Cottonwood, not Oak). Now, I prefer to do a little lawn reclamation instead. Make a pen out of earlier logs to contain the falling ones.

I once used a j-lag to keep the half-hitch from pulling off a piece that needed to have a very short fall. This allowed the half hitch to be placed down very close to the cut, and close to the block, but I still had the piece securly tied with the lowering line instead of attached via a link designed for other puposes. We pre-tensioned the line, and the piece sucked right into the block. Only a two foot diameter, though.

(We were protecting a third story wooden gutter on a huge addition to a house; of course there would have been no dead tree if they had been a little more sensitive to the roots when designing the footprint.)
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

A valuable contribution to the discussion Fred - thanks!

You covered it by explaining how knackering it is to set a heavy block and sling round 4 foot trunks! Thats why I think the clipping to a lag is quicker and easier. Its always at the back of the mind you have to do another tree tomorrow. Energy conservation and ergonomics are under rated in the long term efficiency of daily tree work.

Got any pictures of those cottonwoods? Not a species to inspire confidence! I save a pile of brush as a cushion in a pen, and hopefully avoid lawn reclamation.

Its amazing where you find rigging challenges sometimes! I've got a photo of me and a buddy up a big dead maple that was growing through a bakery! I'll scan them into my website when I get the chance.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Lazarus

Here's one that got documented (though it didn't involve much butt hitching that I can recall):

http://www.berkelhammer.com/treeremoval.html

You're right, they can be pretty sketchy. We did one last week that was riddled with cytospora canker, and had to be done with extra care.

On your idea: seems to me that if each piece were to be cut just below its lag, and the block were to be placed just below the cut (on a sling), you could probably generate about the same forces while cutting twice as big, since you'd be reducing the distance the piece falls by about half. Still more time consuming, though.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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On your idea: seems to me that if each piece were to be cut just below its lag, and the block were to be placed just below the cut (on a sling), you could probably generate about the same forces while cutting twice as big, since you'd be reducing the distance the piece falls by about half. Still more time consuming, though.

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Not sure I'm reading you right here Fred - if the block is the same distance from the cut, whether its on a sling or lag, the fall force will be the same, or higher if bigger (longer?) sections are cut? Which was the idea with 12" discs - lower centre of mass as it tips. By using the lags and pretensioning the line, fall forces are very low. The key seems to be forging a good lag. The pull strength seems OK.

Thinking about cottonwoods, the weaker timber and pull strength should be offset by the much lower weight.

All very intersting stuff.
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

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if the block is the same distance from the cut, whether its on a sling or lag, the fall force will be the same, or higher if bigger (longer?) sections are cut? Which was the idea with 12" discs


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See if I can put it better
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Trying to get the block up closer to the attachment point on the piece, to increase the size of the piece.

In your scenario, if you're placing the lags 12" apart, then, using a block on a shackle on the bottom of the two lags, you would be talking about 12" + @3"(shackle length) + @3" (approx. distance on block, bottom of rope bushing to top of sheave)=@18", x 2 = @36" for the piece to fall before it is caught, depending on the size of the block and shackle, and depending on how much pretensioning you do. What I'm thinking is if you use only the top lag (the one on the piece), you can cut just below it each time, say 4" to be sure it won't split out. If the block is attached to a sling, instead of to the next lag down, it can be placed higher up on the spar, just below the cut, instead of 8" down + shackle length. So the top of the sheave is more like, I don't know, 10" below the top lag , instead of approx 18" below it.

The same would be true if just tying the piece off with traditional marl/hh and running bowline. If you can cut the fall distance by about half, you can increase the size of the piece by about two times.

Your idea is still possibly quicker, once the lags are in.

Cottonwood dry weight is low, but wet is heavier than you might expect. Blair lists it at 49 ppcf, which is probably a little low, depending on time of year. Relatively heavy, weak wood.

Oh yeah, and it smells bad, too
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I like this armchair rigging!
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

vote no ! i just drilled a lag in my window sill , I'm am gonna hang myself from my second floor window . I'd tie a sling but there is ivy on my sill . If the lag breaks I hope I land on my feet . Exteme sucide, thanks Laz.
 
Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

Riggs, is this what drinking new age wine does to you
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? !
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I can recommend a good bottle of French; Chataeuneuf du Pape. Has an amorous effect rather than suicidal...
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Re: \"Extreme Rigging\"

I see where you're coming from Fred!

I originally wanted to avoid wrestling a sling. But thinking about it, a loopie Tenex is 70% stronger than a whoopie, and light. It shouldn't be too much trouble to flick a 3/4" loopie around and then click in a springlock block? If that allows a longer section, it could prove quicker.

I know what you mean about wet poplar wood, especially when its full of bacterial wet wood gunge that floods down your trousers - pheeeeewy! Not a good way to make friends and influence people, if you stop off at the bar before changing on the way home!

Armchair rigging alright! I like to think of it as office based risk assessment before a load is on the line.

Its good to talk.
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Talking of wine, its time for mine. Pity you and Riggs aren't here to share it (you'd have a glass of wine with me, wouldn't ya Riggs?).


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