DRT

[John Uselding]

RE Nano

Thanks

 

[John Uselding]

Yes, Rock Exotica Nano. Thanks again Tom D! Like it was made for this!

Thanks again

 

[goodaking]

I'm digging the the double ropes. Im going to play around some more with the RR RW combo tomorrow and try to make a short video. I like it particularly for wide spread multi-stemmed trees.

 

[bwktreeserv]

Hey all...I have questions!

I have been playing around with a lot of DRT lately on weekends. I know I am at a disadvantage as I don't (yet) have mirrored systems. I'm running a Bull Dog Bone on one line and a RW on the other. I LOVE the BDB and will be buying another one asap. Thanks again Gordon! Id also like to try a Runner whenever that becomes possible.... I really see the benefit both for safety and work positioning of DRT but it's taking me awhile to get proficient at it. That being said, I just wanted to get some configuration specs from you guys (Oceans, Kevin, etc) that have really made this work smooth.

Im sure we don't all have "triple threats" yet from treestuff.com although I have one in my "cart' waiting for me to pull the trigger. So, how do you guys like to set up your 2 lines? i have done it every different way but just wanted to know what works for you as far as the most efficient and most likely to do on a work day. In a broad crowned, very decurrent tree I would think one throw through a suitable PSP would be good? Then you can just run one leg up and anchor two ropes to it? Thats what I have been often doing, setting up a base tie with a anchor on top then tying two line to that and climbing off them. If this works, what are you guys using for attachment? Both for knots and connecting hardware. I know it probably shouldn't matter but its something that you set up on the ground, pull up then never see again up close unless you set it low and want to raise it later. Just wondering what you guys are doing an are comfortable with in different situations? Do you sometimes set lines initially in different crotches ?

I find it awkward tending both systems once working the tree when they are totally parallel but as soon as one has gone through a redirect the other has not it gets better. I am running 2 bridges but really like how clean Eric's set up is with all those swivels. (Great, more gear to buy) I feel like a cluttered mess until I start redirecting the lines and it seems inefficient. Once they are spread out the magic happens but I guess what i'm asking is do you guys pick your routes and work " order of operations" differently now with this technique?

And finally, ascending is easy. two foot ascenders and walk up the rope. Looks ridiculous (according to my wife) but is so easy and efficient. How are you guys tending to systems at once effectively? I have one of Paul D.'s (Swingdudes) amazing chest harnesses and I love it for normal SRT applications. Tending 2 systems felt weird and awkward. I have just been trying to connect both to the same grommet on the harness. Maybe this will be better with 2 mirrored systems but just wondering what you guys are doing?

Sorry for the novel of a post but you all are making this technique look so smooth and I am sold on the safety factor of it in some/most applications that I want to at least give it a fair shake. Thanks for reading this, feel free to give partial answers over time LOL! Hope everyone had a great holiday! -BEN

 

[oceans]

Hey all...I have questions!

I have been playing around with a lot of DRT lately on weekends. I know I am at a disadvantage as I don't (yet) have mirrored systems. I'm running a Bull Dog Bone on one line and a RW on the other. I LOVE the BDB and will be buying another one asap. Thanks again Gordon! Id also like to try a Runner whenever that becomes possible.... I really see the benefit both for safety and work positioning of DRT but it's taking me awhile to get proficient at it. That being said, I just wanted to get some configuration specs from you guys (Oceans, Kevin, etc) that have really made this work smooth.

Ben, best of luck with all this. There's quite a bit to say on the subject. I would say that it's still a work in progress for me, so please share what you find as you work along with it. In my opinion, it really offers the most in pruning larger shade trees. There are other applications, so let your creativity be the limit there.

Im sure we don't all have "triple threats" yet from treestuff.com although I have one in my "cart' waiting for me to pull the trigger. So, how do you guys like to set up your 2 lines? i have done it every different way but just wanted to know what works for you as far as the most efficient and most likely to do on a work day. In a broad crowned, very decurrent tree I would think one throw through a suitable PSP would be good? Then you can just run one leg up and anchor two ropes to it? Thats what I have been often doing, setting up a base tie with a anchor on top then tying two line to that and climbing off them. If this works, what are you guys using for attachment? Both for knots and connecting hardware. I know it probably shouldn't matter but its something that you set up on the ground, pull up then never see again up close unless you set it low and want to raise it later. Just wondering what you guys are doing an are comfortable with in different situations? Do you sometimes set lines initially in different crotches ?

When determining your overall system, you may want to start by thinking about whether you want to be lower-able by a groundman or not.
IF SO: you will most likely want 2 completely independent lines. I can envision an ATC device that has slots for two ropes as an excellent anchor system for this. If you need connections for multiple lines, I would strongly recommend the smallest oval screw link that is rated for the job. These will easily move through most unions if lowering is required.
IF NOT: (what I've been running lately) find a good line at 180' or more and set an Alpine Butterfly at mid-length. Connect that to your access line. You can locate the connection point anywhere from ground level to just below your TIP to tune the amount of working line in the crown. You can climb up one side (1 foot, 1 HAAS) and tend the other every few steps unless you can get enough tail weight for the other side to auto tend. You can also use 2 foot ascenders (or 1 foot, 1 HAAS) and put one on each line and move your legs symmetrically, more like foot locking, instead of alternately. I've also been foot locking a bunch lately in some trees since there's no gear required and you auto tend both lines simultaneously. I really like that.
I've only set multiple unions before the climb on a couple occasions. Mostly, I set both in one and go from there.
Also, just consider you can build a Triple T with 3 lines and a Delta Link.

I find it awkward tending both systems once working the tree when they are totally parallel but as soon as one has gone through a redirect the other has not it gets better. I am running 2 bridges but really like how clean Eric's set up is with all those swivels. (Great, more gear to buy) I feel like a cluttered mess until I start redirecting the lines and it seems inefficient. Once they are spread out the magic happens but I guess what i'm asking is do you guys pick your routes and work " order of operations" differently now with this technique?

I agree that the magic starts when they open up, but more for positioning. Lately, with the triple swivel tree and Bones (along with the new tending point [see Compact BDB thread]), running in parallel has been amazing in every application. It may as well be just one system. I'm lucky to have found that. It took a lot of time and uncertain expenditure.
Your order of operations may change, but but more so with just planning when to climb on a bight in one line (for retrieval) or to fully pass through redirects.
I'll call it your "area of influence" that expands immensely with DSRT. If in SRT, and you could work a 200 square ft. area from a single redirect, you can work multiple times that in DSRT in some cases. This means you'll start planning when & where to set retrievable redirects, and when & where to forward your tail(s) in an effort to maximize your area of influence.

And finally, ascending is easy. two foot ascenders and walk up the rope. Looks ridiculous (according to my wife) but is so easy and efficient. How are you guys tending to systems at once effectively? I have one of Paul D.'s (Swingdudes) amazing chest harnesses and I love it for normal SRT applications. Tending 2 systems felt weird and awkward. I have just been trying to connect both to the same grommet on the harness. Maybe this will be better with 2 mirrored systems but just wondering what you guys are doing?

The mirrored systems probably help me, also that the Bones puke rope through them, meaning you can climb just one line as the other auto tends. For instance, if I had a RW and a Bone, I would most likely want to climb the RW line and let the bone auto tend, but maybe not, I don't know...one could say a RW would grab better if it was the slack side left to auto tend. Hitches don't seem to self-set on tight rope as well as on slack rope.
In the most recent photo of my DSRT Bone setup (taken inside the shop), you can see that I've raised the tending points. There's already good stuff coming out from 'treegongfu' about an even better tending point (again, see the Compact BDB thread).

Sorry for the novel of a post but you all are making this technique look so smooth and I am sold on the safety factor of it in some/most applications that I want to at least give it a fair shake. Thanks for reading this, feel free to give partial answers over time LOL! Hope everyone had a great holiday! -BEN

No worries! This takes some work to get right, and you'll certainly have your own findings as things go along. Again, please keep contributing, and don't give up. I've certainly been trying to use it as often as I can, even if I may not really need it...just to keep the gears turning.

Cheers!

 

[goodaking]

So I just got finished giving Drt a good run. On my assent I would climb with the hass and Pantin on the rope wrench side and tend the runner every so often. When I got high enough the Runner would self tend nicely. If I needed to ascend small distances in the crown I would lose the hass and just use the Pantin with my other foot over it like foot locking. Then self tend the runner. Descending in Parallel worked well with the RR and RW. working out on long limb walks in parelle at steeper angles was harder because there was less weight on the wrench and I had to manually pull the wrench down a bit at a time. I agree once you have the two systems split and have more weight on the systems you can move more easily. I did get in some tangles at times and took me a bit to figure out witch way to go.

 

[goodaking]

Ill b back with more in a bit

 

[JontreeHI]

I ran the triple threat idea today, delta link works just fine, but I'm pretty sure I'm all good on the triple threat. Already I can see retrieval being a nightmare, I had to retrace all my steps and pull all my redirects to get it out. It's definitely a really cool idea, and I'm sure it has lots of potential uses, but I would have been much better off with individually base-anchored systems.

I really like the DMM large swivel on the bridge. Now I just need one more and my kit is complete, and I can do flips--I mean increase production, ergonomics and safety through redundancy.
And do flips.

 

[oceans]

I ran the triple threat idea today, delta link works just fine, but I'm pretty sure I'm all good on the triple threat. Already I can see retrieval being a nightmare, I had to retrace all my steps and pull all my redirects to get it out. It's definitely a really cool idea, and I'm sure it has lots of potential uses, but I would have been much better off with individually base-anchored systems.

I really like the DMM large swivel on the bridge. Now I just need one more and my kit is complete, and I can do flips--I mean increase production, ergonomics and safety through redundancy.
And do flips.

The 'Y' system is great if you're not ready/able to commit to new line for independent systems, but to really get everything out of DSRT, you really do need two separate lines. I think I'm going to buy an ATC belay device to run 2 lines out of a single anchor. I think that would be clean.

 

[bwktreeserv]

Thanks so much Eric for the quick and very in depth response! I really appreciate it. I didn't get to "play" at work today. The Atlas Cedar I was restoring (storm damage from last Feb. Better late than never?) sucked to climb. It was no fun SRT DSRT or anything else that involved moving vertically, laterally, or any way it was so dense and clustered and f'd up. Actually the only reason I even climbed out of the bucket today was because I was cold! LOL! Anyway, I did use my BDB SRT on a different rope than usual. The results were interesting... I'll post about that in the other thread specifically about the BDB.

As far as ascending I use a HAAS all the time SRT. That being said even the first time I DSRT'd I used 2 foot ascenders. It was very awkward looking i'm sure but I just walked right up. I was tending both systems attached to my chest harness and is was simply step step step. Now knowing that you guys are just tending one and letting the other just "follow", I think I can just use one line and my HAAS. This is good as the pulling force at two different vectors on the chest harness sucks! I'll give it a try.

For anchoring ropes I still have questions. I have been sometimes doing it like we do to set remote rigging points from the ground. Ya'll follow... Get one good crotch with your throw line, pull a rope up into and through it and back down. Attach a block with a rope through it blah blah blah. Only now, pull it down, attach a connector (?) and attach two ropes to that. Pull it up, base anchor the one line and climb away. So, when doing this what do you like for knots and what connector is good? If everything else can be redirected (higher than initial PSP if necessary) than it shouldn't need to be pulled through crotch? So a delta or a shackle or ring or anything really? But not a biner right?

I really want to go mirrored systems ASAP. But, I was doing it backwards. I was primarily favoring the BDB and trying to "trail" the RW system. Will try it opposite tomorrow. I'm going to buy another BDB as soon as Gordon can get me one and actually skipped the next RR run that went off today. I think the symmetrical systems will make it smoother and certainly less confusing looking.

I'll weigh in as soon as I give er' another go. Thanks again all! -BEN

 

[oceans]

The Atlas Cedar I was restoring (storm damage from last Feb. Better late than never?) sucked to climb. It was no fun SRT DSRT or anything else that involved moving vertically, laterally, or any way it was so dense and clustered and f'd up.

I only wish for you that your experience in that Atlas Cedar was like that of mine at Longwood Gardens. I felt honored to climb them.

...the first time I DSRT'd I used 2 foot ascenders. It was very awkward looking i'm sure but I just walked right up...simply step step step...

I can only guess you were on very static ropes, or you had a double cam ascender above your system as an aid? With any appreciable elongation in the ropes (and w/o a double cam ascender), I found much of my progress on one rope was lost as I transferred weight to the other. Unless you could grip the two ropes together so tightly by hand that the slack would not transfer between steps. This is what led me to try and walk just one line and let the other follow.

For anchoring ropes I still have questions. I have been sometimes doing it like we do to set remote rigging points from the ground. Ya'll follow... Get one good crotch with your throw line, pull a rope up into and through it and back down. Attach a block with a rope through it blah blah blah. Only now, pull it down, attach a connector (?) and attach two ropes to that. Pull it up, base anchor the one line and climb away. So, when doing this what do you like for knots and what connector is good? If everything else can be redirected (higher than initial PSP if necessary) than it shouldn't need to be pulled through crotch? So a delta or a shackle or ring or anything really? But not a biner right?

A biner can work fine, though it may not be perfect of all potential scenarios. This is why I feel an Oval Link is best. They are quite small, and the gate will not likely be compromised by passing over a union. A 'Slaice' is the best ticket, followed by an eye splice, followed distantly by a knot (only because knots can jam). If I use a knot, a Scaffold/Double Fisherman Bend is great. For mid-line knots, or connecting a "middled" line to a base anchor line, I use an Alpine Butterfly. Two lines end to end, I'd choose the Zeppelin Bend.

...was doing it backwards. I was primarily favoring the BDB and trying to "trail" the RW system. Will try it opposite tomorrow...

Yes. If climbing parallel on different systems (RR & RW, BDB & RW, etc...), connect your tending system to the one with MORE friction on ascent, and let the one with LESS friction trail behind.

 

[bwktreeserv]

Here's a pic of the Atlas. Not a great pic but you get the idea. Pretty neat tree. They are everywhere around here and get huge. Climbing them is like climbing in a cathedral. Deodar's are my favorite because of the longer, wispy foliage.

Ok. not to get derailed....

When I was ascending both ropes I was on Tachyon on one side and Luna on the other. there was some bounce for sure. I did have both systems attached to my chest harness so it tended nice just wasn't comfortable.

Today i'm going to go for a rec. climb and will set it up differently. I will use Tachyon for both lines and tend the RW only. I'll try to take some pics and report back as to my hopefully newfound success.

As far as attachment goes I will again attach both legs of Tachyon to the base tied anchor leg of escalator. I have a delta link laying around so I guess i'll use that and then scaffold both line to it.

Looking forward to a good climb. I'll let ya'll know. Thanks again for all the help. -BEN

 

[goodaking]

so i just got finished with my new years eve double rope climb. I feel im starting to get the hang of it now. You really need to plan your climb to be efficient. something that helped me navigate the wide spread oak i was climbing in was to have one rope go through multiple redirects and have the tail end hang where you want to come back and retrieve that system. The other side i try to have a nice clear path to swing back to where i can retrieve the redirected system. keeping the systems spread out also keeps them from getting to tangled. i like them in a Y figuration. On limb walks slack one out and climb on the tension line. Ascents went smother this time. I climbed on the RW side with the hitch and just walked up the rope as usual. once you get off the ground a bit the RR self tends. I used the lanyard over the shoulder to tend the two together. Works great. Descend down to the ground worked great as well. I think if this really take off some of the rope company's may want to stitch or print arrows to orient witch way the ropes are running for retrieval of redirected ropes. it can get a bit confusing at times witch part of the rope to grab. one thing that helped was that i had two different colord ropes for the two systems i was using. and my lanyard was a different color as well. when i have some time ill post a vid from today. Happy new year climb safe and slow with these new systems
Ian

 

[goodaking]

ps i went back to a soft tether for the wrench less clanging around with the runner.

 

[Leroy]

Maybe it has been mentioned before but how about ascending with one system/device, then attach your second device/system once you get to where you're goin?

 

[bwktreeserv]

Climbed DSRT today for fun. It was amazing! I finally got it to a point the whole process was smooth. Pulled a single line of escalator over my PSP. Attached a delta link and 2 lines of Tachyon and base tied the escalator. Bone on one, RW on the other and ascended tending only the RW system with my chest harness and HAAS. Flawless. Even got to the point where I would throw the running end of my BDB system over my hand that was above my RW system as I flew up and it tended without ever bunching up. Got to a point somewhere during the climb when I got comfortable descending both systems (still in parallel at that time) with one hand. Way cool. Redirected a couple of times and then experienced with some odd work positions over an adjacent tree. So easy and so comfortable. Here is a couple pics, nothing crazy, my phone died in the cold but you get the idea. Hope everyone has a great and safe new years! -BEN

 

[bwktreeserv]

Levi, I am totally not the one to ask. I'm (as you know) so new at this. I very often set an additional system up once aloft. Like a long lanyard or short SRT system or whatever else. I think the cool thing about this is setting one system from the ground and then working off it for the whole job/tree/whatever. In this configuration the retrieval or clearing of the system is so easy. When you set multiple systems in multiple crotches the retrieval is sometime more complex? Anyway, im not ready to bring this to work everyday yet, but on certain trees and certain pruning situations I would go to DRT after my comfort today! -BEN

 

[oceans]

Levi, I am totally not the one to ask. I'm (as you know) so new at this. I very often set an additional system up once aloft. Like a long lanyard or short SRT system or whatever else. I think the cool thing about this is setting one system from the ground and then working off it for the whole job/tree/whatever. In this configuration the retrieval or clearing of the system is so easy. When you set multiple systems in multiple crotches the retrieval is sometime more complex? Anyway, im not ready to bring this to work everyday yet, but on certain trees and certain pruning situations I would go to DRT after my comfort today! -BEN

Nice going, Ben. Funny thing about the 'Y' system is that you can pull it out of the tree from any one of the three lines, depending on what redi's were passed, and where the connector is located.

You have the works of a great set up right there in all that you posted, especially if you can somehow get spliced eyes on all the lines...even stitched eyes are better than a knot in regard to bulk. But, if you plan the climb right, you can work with those knots ANY day.

Safe and Happy New Year!

 

[oceans]

I did myself a favor (I think...) and went back to re-read this entire thread, and I'm just sort of reflecting. While climbing on 2 independent systems is not new, something has been solidifying for me in my mind.

What is totally NEW about DSRT, is that if you set yourself up right, you can truly operate 2 systems as if they are 1 while they are parallel. This is novel to me, at least, because (at least for me with 2 Bones) I can not only operate 2 simultaneously, but I can do it with 1 hand, like I would with just one system.

While I sit here and look out the window at the trees, I think more and more about how I would climb them in DSRT. And I'm thinking about 2 things...Now I can run 2 as if it was one, until I want 2 systems. At that point, I don't even have to lanyard in in order to open up a whole new world of possibilities. Now I'm asking, "Why NOT climb in DSRT?".

I feel so fortunate to have a resource like the Buzz, and to be able to share & learn with all you other Tree-Heads out there. Happy New Year, Buzzers! Climb on!

 

[bwktreeserv]

Eric, Heck yeah!!! Completely agree. After I had ascended up to my PSP I descended back down to where I was going to start moving around the canopy. On my decent I released both systems with one hand with ease. And i'm still running a mismatched configuration with the BDB and the RW. I have two wrenches and I should probably try climbing with the two mirrored systems but I can't put down the bone! I love that thing! I'm buying another one ASAP! I had my lanyard on my saddle just out of habit yesterday but never once used it. To cool! Thanks again for all your detailed help, man the BUZZ rocks! -BEN