cutting a co dominant
- Thread starter treebing
- Start date
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
Answers (please spend $8. on the ISA Glossary so I don't have to type these out any more).
1. Both--what's the difference?: "codominantbranch/codominant stem:forked branches nearly the same size in diameter, arising from a common junction and lacking a normal branch union"
2. A branch collar: "area where a branch joins another branch or trunk that is created by the overlapping vascular tissues from both the branch and the trunk; typically enlarged at the base of the branch" (more easily seen in oaks than eucs)
There's a gray area between "included bark" and "branch bark ridge"; one has tissues curling inward and tending to crack, in the other, the bark is pushed outward and the xylem compacts and holds strong.
Nice codit at the base of that last one. I'd guess that pocket full of pathogens may sit until they build up in virulence and the tree declines. One day they may break through, so it would have been far better for the tree to have a collar cut and closure.
1. Both--what's the difference?: "codominantbranch/codominant stem:forked branches nearly the same size in diameter, arising from a common junction and lacking a normal branch union"
2. A branch collar: "area where a branch joins another branch or trunk that is created by the overlapping vascular tissues from both the branch and the trunk; typically enlarged at the base of the branch" (more easily seen in oaks than eucs)
There's a gray area between "included bark" and "branch bark ridge"; one has tissues curling inward and tending to crack, in the other, the bark is pushed outward and the xylem compacts and holds strong.
Nice codit at the base of that last one. I'd guess that pocket full of pathogens may sit until they build up in virulence and the tree declines. One day they may break through, so it would have been far better for the tree to have a collar cut and closure.
And here's a pic of the piece we cut off, the other side the previous pic didn't really show you.
Now, what advantage did the tree get by leaving this stub?
None from my perspective. The decay has advanced into the tree regardless. And see all those holes and stuff in the stub ... they're borers. That stub was like a beacon signalling a smorgas board banquet for bugs and fungi. The amount of "infection" increased proportionally by the volume of stub out there.
And did you notice the attempt of sealing being hampered in that first pic? I'm open to ideas but this is what I see.
Now, what advantage did the tree get by leaving this stub?
None from my perspective. The decay has advanced into the tree regardless. And see all those holes and stuff in the stub ... they're borers. That stub was like a beacon signalling a smorgas board banquet for bugs and fungi. The amount of "infection" increased proportionally by the volume of stub out there.
And did you notice the attempt of sealing being hampered in that first pic? I'm open to ideas but this is what I see.
Attachments
These pics are all of a real job I did today, some pruning and some removals.
And on the other pic I had to remove that co-dom so here you go, USA style cut in action ... err, I hope ya'll like it, if not feel free to draw a line where I should have cut it! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
And on the other pic I had to remove that co-dom so here you go, USA style cut in action ... err, I hope ya'll like it, if not feel free to draw a line where I should have cut it! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Attachments
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
[ QUOTE ]
I had to remove that co-dom so here you go, USA style cut in action ... err, I hope ya'll like it, if not feel free to draw a line where I should have cut it! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
1. why did you have to remove it? Was there an option to subordinate it into a side branch?
2. Kindly cease besmirching my motherland. A USA style cut would angle it down from the origin. There is a small callus roll that looks like the natural target. Sorry no line-making experience here.
I had to remove that co-dom so here you go, USA style cut in action ... err, I hope ya'll like it, if not feel free to draw a line where I should have cut it! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
1. why did you have to remove it? Was there an option to subordinate it into a side branch?
2. Kindly cease besmirching my motherland. A USA style cut would angle it down from the origin. There is a small callus roll that looks like the natural target. Sorry no line-making experience here.
- Location
- Canon City ,CO
[ QUOTE ]
These pics are all of a real job I did today, some pruning and some removals.
And on the other pic I had to remove that co-dom so here you go, USA style cut in action ... err, I hope ya'll like it, if not feel free to draw a line where I should have cut it! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't leave it that way Eric. My gut say you took th epic then cut the nasty stub off.
These pics are all of a real job I did today, some pruning and some removals.
And on the other pic I had to remove that co-dom so here you go, USA style cut in action ... err, I hope ya'll like it, if not feel free to draw a line where I should have cut it! /forum/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
You didn't leave it that way Eric. My gut say you took th epic then cut the nasty stub off.
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
1. why did you have to remove it? Was there an option to subordinate it into a side branch?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, this is where we started!
Subordinate? Ha! What page is that on? Got chapter and verse?
I think it is important to note that while trees are evolving at their own pace.........our understanding of their living system is evolving at a rate of at least a thousand fold.
When trees evolve the ability to read many codominates will no doubt be sparred the arborist chain saw. Trees will cease to waste energy growing limbs that draw the attention of book wise arborist who hack off whole leaders in the name of target pruning.
Thanks for the old arbor 101 pictures Ekka. Got any photos of subornation pruning? Tree care is experiencing a paradigm shift and it is being lead by people who have read the old books and realize the final chapter in tree pruning is always going to be a work in progress.
Dan
If the whole world was black and white we wouldn't need color TV's.
1. why did you have to remove it? Was there an option to subordinate it into a side branch?
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, this is where we started!
Subordinate? Ha! What page is that on? Got chapter and verse?
I think it is important to note that while trees are evolving at their own pace.........our understanding of their living system is evolving at a rate of at least a thousand fold.
When trees evolve the ability to read many codominates will no doubt be sparred the arborist chain saw. Trees will cease to waste energy growing limbs that draw the attention of book wise arborist who hack off whole leaders in the name of target pruning.
Thanks for the old arbor 101 pictures Ekka. Got any photos of subornation pruning? Tree care is experiencing a paradigm shift and it is being lead by people who have read the old books and realize the final chapter in tree pruning is always going to be a work in progress.
Dan
If the whole world was black and white we wouldn't need color TV's.
Oh Stumper, you spoilt my fun!
Guy, nowhere to subordinate to. Big branch going over neibs side of fence and roof. Remember a lot of trees here are sort of self lions tailed and foliage on the end not much between. Also branch interfering with access to garden shed.
We did manage to subordinate the rear of the tree going over the back fence, we had more distance but was snookered here. Little bit of besmirching doesn't hurt hey? Helps add vigour to the debate. I was hoping more people would join into this with pics etc, it is a global board.
Also, here's a color pic of where I did cut it to, because on this one it wasn't black and white where the target was so I looked at the area around that nasty stub I cut off and emulated the growth pattern.
I felt I could have taken a bit more and angled it down a bit more but the front and back was quite awkward to line up and I figured the extra half inch wasn't worth the possibility of a stuffed cut. I've asked the customer to keep an eye on the growth and if it needs to be cut lower to give me a call ... but I think it will be OK.
Well, I've still to see evidence from your pond that contradicts the B&W 101 practice, plenty here that supports it.
Guy, nowhere to subordinate to. Big branch going over neibs side of fence and roof. Remember a lot of trees here are sort of self lions tailed and foliage on the end not much between. Also branch interfering with access to garden shed.
We did manage to subordinate the rear of the tree going over the back fence, we had more distance but was snookered here. Little bit of besmirching doesn't hurt hey? Helps add vigour to the debate. I was hoping more people would join into this with pics etc, it is a global board.
Also, here's a color pic of where I did cut it to, because on this one it wasn't black and white where the target was so I looked at the area around that nasty stub I cut off and emulated the growth pattern.
I felt I could have taken a bit more and angled it down a bit more but the front and back was quite awkward to line up and I figured the extra half inch wasn't worth the possibility of a stuffed cut. I've asked the customer to keep an eye on the growth and if it needs to be cut lower to give me a call ... but I think it will be OK.
Well, I've still to see evidence from your pond that contradicts the B&W 101 practice, plenty here that supports it.
Attachments
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
I felt I could have taken a bit more and angled it down a bit more but the front and back was quite awkward to line up and I figured the extra half inch wasn't worth the possibility of a stuffed cut.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ekka you have made a good cut if the leader needed to come off and a poor one if it didn't.
What you have there might not be a stuffed cut but it sure is looking like a stuffed tree! Over here large wounds like you have made leads quite often to serious decay.
You removed a large piece of that tree and ran it through a chipper the whole time claiming you are improving the tree! Trees have lots of limbs that can't be reduced using the 1/3 rule but that doesn't mean they have to be entirely removed.
Have you got a 'before' photo? You know...a photo from before it was decided that subordination was not a possibility?
I felt I could have taken a bit more and angled it down a bit more but the front and back was quite awkward to line up and I figured the extra half inch wasn't worth the possibility of a stuffed cut.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ekka you have made a good cut if the leader needed to come off and a poor one if it didn't.
What you have there might not be a stuffed cut but it sure is looking like a stuffed tree! Over here large wounds like you have made leads quite often to serious decay.
You removed a large piece of that tree and ran it through a chipper the whole time claiming you are improving the tree! Trees have lots of limbs that can't be reduced using the 1/3 rule but that doesn't mean they have to be entirely removed.
Have you got a 'before' photo? You know...a photo from before it was decided that subordination was not a possibility?
Hey Ekka,
Does this image appear to have enough less fine detail to make it not suitable for your purposes here? I wouldn't think so.
Doesn't Picasa 2.0 give you the ability to modify the JPEG quality level? If not it may not be quite what you need. Yours was 100 for a 547KB file, mine's 75 for a 133KB file and nearly only 25% of the download time (not to mention savings for the site's hosting, all the intermediate routing, and everyone's service providers)...
Aside from that, I'm not going to argue with you on this topic. I can't quite see what it is in this thread that could have spawned your/"our" spirited discussion; it must be some long-standing feud? On the one where you removed the dead stub, I'd have taken it further to a point where the bark was tight all the way 'round. Why go to all the trouble to still leave a cavity on the perimeter like that? It didn't look like you'd got back to the collar anyway.
Does this image appear to have enough less fine detail to make it not suitable for your purposes here? I wouldn't think so.
Doesn't Picasa 2.0 give you the ability to modify the JPEG quality level? If not it may not be quite what you need. Yours was 100 for a 547KB file, mine's 75 for a 133KB file and nearly only 25% of the download time (not to mention savings for the site's hosting, all the intermediate routing, and everyone's service providers)...
Aside from that, I'm not going to argue with you on this topic. I can't quite see what it is in this thread that could have spawned your/"our" spirited discussion; it must be some long-standing feud? On the one where you removed the dead stub, I'd have taken it further to a point where the bark was tight all the way 'round. Why go to all the trouble to still leave a cavity on the perimeter like that? It didn't look like you'd got back to the collar anyway.
Attachments
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
- Location
- NJ
The reason decay has gotten into the tree is because the cut was off target. It was slighly angeled down to the right and it shows. The callus should form evenly all the way around the wound and you can clearly see it hasn't.
But being that it is such a small tree, installing a 3 way cable will probally help support the tree for years to come.
But being that it is such a small tree, installing a 3 way cable will probally help support the tree for years to come.
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
Climber020 here is a photo from another angle of the cut. Do you still think the cut was to close? It looks like a good cut would be impossible to make with a tool that cuts in a plane.
The point I am trying to make of course is that wounds low on the trunk open the trunk to decay. In fact it is often impossible to remove a leader without exposing interior wood that will never be closed over. Even if closure does occur decay organism have already found a home and will continue to eat the tree.
In the past 20 years I have witnessed hundreds if not thousands of such decay patterns in tree trunks damaged by chain saws. Of course the politically correct text book answer is that the cut has been made wrong. Well no doubt some of the cuts could have been better......but there is still a fundamental problem any time large wounds leave wood exposed to the elements.
Dan
The point I am trying to make of course is that wounds low on the trunk open the trunk to decay. In fact it is often impossible to remove a leader without exposing interior wood that will never be closed over. Even if closure does occur decay organism have already found a home and will continue to eat the tree.
In the past 20 years I have witnessed hundreds if not thousands of such decay patterns in tree trunks damaged by chain saws. Of course the politically correct text book answer is that the cut has been made wrong. Well no doubt some of the cuts could have been better......but there is still a fundamental problem any time large wounds leave wood exposed to the elements.
Dan
Attachments
Dan, that's just plain being rude. Please allow viewers of the thread to opt in to your attachments.
Glen
Glen
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
Re: cutting a co dominant *DELETED* *DELETED* *DEL
Post deleted by TreeCo
Would someone please remove this posting.
thanks,
Post deleted by TreeCo
Would someone please remove this posting.
thanks,
Mucho gracias.
