crane flips in Chester County pa

Levi.CO said:
It sounds like an interesting problem to have.
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It is definitely a different kind of stress, but it still stressful.

Trying to stay on schedule, and keep everyone happy, working even though the weather sucks, and there isn't much worse then telling long time customers (of 12 plus years) that we won't be able to do the work till months down the road. Plus EAB just started hitting here at the end of last year, and we have oak decline killing off Chestnut oaks in my main service area.

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ROYCE said:
I would be real interested in what your rates per man hour are for a removal job. Say a three person crew. I am willing to bet I am cheaper per man hour and could do the same job in less than half the time with a crane. People think that if you bring a crane to the job then your charging HUGE money. That is not the case. A crane makes money by charging the same rate as a climbing crew, but with the ability to get three or four jobs done to their one job.
That is my market. Maybe it is different where you are.
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I believe you! I am sure you could get the same job done in way less than half the time, but might you be at least 3 times the expense for the client. Our market is such that if we add any sort of crane price to the quote we will not get the job. I also have trouble comparing our rates to yours as we are purely owner operated. 2 man crew. We get what we get and that is all, most goes back into our company. We are both very experienced and can get a lot done fast. Yes we work really hard, and we take a lot of time cleaning up broken dead Ash off the ground, but we get the clients a fair price that they can afford. I think though, I am inexperienced when it comes to cranes. I am sure I could get used to having a crane around if the market would allow. In our area, out in the country, where houses are few and far between, and most folks are farmer sorts that will pull their trees over on their own (with their huge tractors) if your price isn't right...it is hard to justify a crane. We also don't mind referring someone to a company that has a crane...if it needs a crane. Why not let companies that have that capability take care of those needs. We will keep our costs low, and work for our clients not for ourselves.

I do understand the philosophy of same rate, just done faster...but it doesn't always sound like that from our end. We do some jobs and the clients tell us that the other company was going to use a crane and the quote was literally thousands of dollars over what we did the job for. I am not saying that this is what all companies with cranes are selling, but often that is what we hear.
Royce, you are obviously in a different league when it comes to big equipment and big operations, so I would like to hear how this is done. You are saying that the crane pays for itself because you can get more jobs done in the same day, but each of these jobs are bid at the same price as if you didn't have a crane on site? That is, you don't charge more for using a crane, it just allows you to make more money each day by doing more jobs per day - And by this you are helping your clients by getting to them quicker. So, are the jobs where you can't bring a crane 4 times as expensive? If you can normally get to 4 jobs a day with a crane? Like I said, I just have never wrapped my head around figuring a crane into daily operations. Thanks for helping me understand something that I have always been curious about.
 
Also, a lot of my enjoyment comes from climbing the tree, if that got chopped up into 4 separate locations just lifting the trees out to the road and without the fun rigging of individual limbs and bombing pieces out...I think I wouldn't enjoy my job as much. I like the small scale one job at a time. Something for each of us.
 
John_KAYS said:
I believe you! I am sure you could get the same job done in way less than half the time, but might you be at least 3 times the expense for the client. Our market is such that if we add any sort of crane price to the quote we will not get the job. I also have trouble comparing our rates to yours as we are purely owner operated. 2 man crew. We get what we get and that is all, most goes back into our company. We are both very experienced and can get a lot done fast. Yes we work really hard, and we take a lot of time cleaning up broken dead Ash off the ground, but we get the clients a fair price that they can afford. I think though, I am inexperienced when it comes to cranes. I am sure I could get used to having a crane around if the market would allow. In our area, out in the country, where houses are few and far between, and most folks are farmer sorts that will pull their trees over on their own (with their huge tractors) if your price isn't right...it is hard to justify a crane. We also don't mind referring someone to a company that has a crane...if it needs a crane. Why not let companies that have that capability take care of those needs. We will keep our costs low, and work for our clients not for ourselves.

I do understand the philosophy of same rate, just done faster...but it doesn't always sound like that from our end. We do some jobs and the clients tell us that the other company was going to use a crane and the quote was literally thousands of dollars over what we did the job for. I am not saying that this is what all companies with cranes are selling, but often that is what we hear.
Royce, you are obviously in a different league when it comes to big equipment and big operations, so I would like to hear how this is done. You are saying that the crane pays for itself because you can get more jobs done in the same day, but each of these jobs are bid at the same price as if you didn't have a crane on site? That is, you don't charge more for using a crane, it just allows you to make more money each day by doing more jobs per day - And by this you are helping your clients by getting to them quicker. So, are the jobs where you can't bring a crane 4 times as expensive? If you can normally get to 4 jobs a day with a crane? Like I said, I just have never wrapped my head around figuring a crane into daily operations. Thanks for helping me understand something that I have always been curious about.
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Funny, You just described my market to a T. I am in farm country where most people have a 100 acres and my competition is the guy with a chainsaw and a pick -up truck.
I get what your saying. You price the job for a two man crew, you do a really good job and your busy. That is working for you, so don't change it. My point is that around here a tree is worth X amount to remove it. Doesn't matter how you get that tree on the ground, chipped up and logs off the property. That job is paying X amount. I can get that job done quickly with four guys, log truck, crane, bucket truck, chip truck and chipper, dingo and tractor if needed. I have structured my business to allow me to use equipment to help me get jobs done. Around here you have to be very competitive. A crane allows me to be competitive. I have found that the use of a crane is actually best with the smaller jobs. Roll up, set crane up, one or two picks tree is on the ground and your off to do another one. It's the big jobs where the crane is going to be parked all day opt two days where you have to watch your price to stay competitive.
I just looked at a job, actually just got back and sat down at my desk. It's 8 trees, drop then into the field and clean up the wood and leave the brush in a pile for the homeowner to burn. I priced the job for a day with 4 guys. I got the job right on the spot. Why? Because I educated the customer about the need for experienced people to drop trees that close to his house.( can not get a crane anywhere close to these trees) Just the dingo and log truck will be used on this job. Yet we are making our days rate like we have all the equipment on the site. That is the way I have structured my business. We get our man hour rate and that is enough to cover our expenses and all our equipment, even if it;s not needed. My day rate for this job was 700 less than another company he had bid this job. It was going to take then two days. They were going to haul the wood away by hand. I will do it with a dingo and my log truck. So here, equipment has gotten me the job, saved the homeowner money, and now booked me into August.
 
John_KAYS said:
Also, a lot of my enjoyment comes from climbing the tree, if that got chopped up into 4 separate locations just lifting the trees out to the road and without the fun rigging of individual limbs and bombing pieces out...I think I wouldn't enjoy my job as much. I like the small scale one job at a time. Something for each of us.
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There is a lot of enjoyment with removing large trees with cranes with expert rigging. Knowing where to sling the pieces so there is no movement.Trying to estimate the load weight to with-in a 100 pounds. Communication between operator and cutter. These are all challenges and though they are different that rigging and letting pieces fly, they still can be fun and rewarding at the end of the day.
I hear you though, I do enjoy the back-yard removal from time to time. I just also really enjoy the crane work as well.
 
climbhightree said:
I gave a flex day on Fridays of every week...it is amazing how quickly that gets used up due to jobs going long, weather, or emergency work....and I'm booking into October right now. Job we are currently doing, we're bid on in November.

For me it comes down to another crew, or do jobs faster (crane). I prefer equipment over employees.

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This is exactly where we are. I have a customer who has spent in excess of 50K dollars in the last few years and she called me the other day. She wants to have some MORE work done. I am looking at the job next week. It's probably going to be another week long job. Where to I fit that in?
I have toyed with the idea of another crew. But that's three more employees I have to rely on everyday. I have three great guys now. I would rather purchase the equipment that allows me to accomplish the jobs faster.
One thing I would mention too, is that in this world of Tree Care and Removal. People are buying your passion, your experience and your customer service. We are busy because I answer the phone and call EVERYONE back. That has gotten me more job, just showing up and putting a number on a tree and then getting them into my schedule. Customer service goes so far in an industry not always great at servicing the customer.
 
climbhightree said:
Agree! That is the boat I'm in...except farther out. Crane is about efficiency and getting more work done.

Cost wise (to the customer) I've found in my market it works out to about the same.

Yesterday we (2 guys) bombed out 3 deadish Ash trees by lunch...the spent +4 hours raking up broken limbs and twigs. Crane would have kept breakage to a minimum, and would have all been by the chipper.

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I had that same thing happen this winter with pine trees. I priced a job to fell these large pine trees. Then we spend three days cleaning them up. The crane would of put the pieces right behind the chipper and sped the process up.
I believe that if your busy, you can buy a good used crane and pay for it in two years. Then, if things slow down..who cares? The crane is paid for. If I was not busy I would not be considering a crane. I would do the bucket jobs and the felling jobs with a lot of clean-up. However I do not see it slowing down for us. Like they say "make hay while the suns shining"
 
ROYCE said:
Funny, You just described my market to a T. I am in farm country where most people have a 100 acres and my competition is the guy with a chainsaw and a pick -up truck.
I get what your saying. You price the job for a two man crew, you do a really good job and your busy. That is working for you, so don't change it. My point is that around here a tree is worth X amount to remove it. Doesn't matter how you get that tree on the ground, chipped up and logs off the property. That job is paying X amount. I can get that job done quickly with four guys, log truck, crane, bucket truck, chip truck and chipper, dingo and tractor if needed. I have structured my business to allow me to use equipment to help me get jobs done. Around here you have to be very competitive. A crane allows me to be competitive. I have found that the use of a crane is actually best with the smaller jobs. Roll up, set crane up, one or two picks tree is on the ground and your off to do another one. It's the big jobs where the crane is going to be parked all day opt two days where you have to watch your price to stay competitive.
I just looked at a job, actually just got back and sat down at my desk. It's 8 trees, drop then into the field and clean up the wood and leave the brush in a pile for the homeowner to burn. I priced the job for a day with 4 guys. I got the job right on the spot. Why? Because I educated the customer about the need for experienced people to drop trees that close to his house.( can not get a crane anywhere close to these trees) Just the dingo and log truck will be used on this job. Yet we are making our days rate like we have all the equipment on the site. That is the way I have structured my business. We get our man hour rate and that is enough to cover our expenses and all our equipment, even if it;s not needed. My day rate for this job was 700 less than another company he had bid this job. It was going to take then two days. They were going to haul the wood away by hand. I will do it with a dingo and my log truck. So here, equipment has gotten me the job, saved the homeowner money, and now booked me into August.
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ROYCE said:
There is a lot of enjoyment with removing large trees with cranes with expert rigging. Knowing where to sling the pieces so there is no movement.Trying to estimate the load weight to with-in a 100 pounds. Communication between operator and cutter. These are all challenges and though they are different that rigging and letting pieces fly, they still can be fun and rewarding at the end of the day.
I hear you though, I do enjoy the back-yard removal from time to time. I just also really enjoy the crane work as well.
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Cool! You sound like you have it figured out. We have it figured out too, but it sounds like we are making a lot more work for ourselves. :)
I would love to be on your crew with all that big equipment, my back is starting to hurt me. I do like the small scale stuff though...I mean we do some wicked big stuff, and for that I think I would appreciate a crane to make it go by more quickly. Spending the whole week in one tree...you lose a lot of the enjoyment. ;)
 
John_KAYS said:
Cool! You sound like you have it figured out. We have it figured out too, but it sounds like we are making a lot more work for ourselves. :)
I would love to be on your crew with all that big equipment, my back is starting to hurt me. I do like the small scale stuff though...I mean we do some wicked big stuff, and for that I think I would appreciate a crane to make it go by more quickly. Spending the whole week in one tree...you lose a lot of the enjoyment. ;)
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You keep doing your thing. Whats important is that at the end of the day your safe, you made some money, and you had fun. Life is a series of days...make each day count and have no regrets!!
 
John_KAYS said:
You are saying that the crane pays for itself because you can get more jobs done in the same day, but each of these jobs are bid at the same price as if you didn't have a crane on site?
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Yes. That's probably our reason for bringing in a crane 35% of the time. Same total bill, half the profit (crane cost), but half the time and get on to the next job, and thus the same profit for the day because we did 2 jobs versus 1. Just more work than we can handle, and in our market, people will NOT wait 3 months for us to show up. Either we do it in the next 3 weeks, or they're hiring someone else.

The other 2 reasons are:
A) No other way to do it safely, 5%
B) Reducing the landscape damage from getting large trees down and out of the backyard (also saving time and everyone's backs in the process), 60%
 
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Recently at the Michigan ASM Conference Mark Chisholm was a speaker and he pointed out that we've (us old guys anyway) all done the work and don't need the practice anymore of unnecessary roping and raking, so use whatever equipment is available to make the job as fast and easy as possible. Sure it's great to drop a tree into a rough area and not have to rake or clean anything up but those jobs are extremely rare for urban cutting and using a crane makes everything so much easier. As Royce said a crane will make its own payments up with every job, even on a simple 1 cut 30' spruce in a front yard that never touches the ground as it flies over to the chipper deck and goes through
 
Daniel said:
If I had a crane I'd use it... I got a bucket truck so I use that.. One thing about the crane though is it is 99% removal only... Bucket can remove or prune.. My skid steer has turf tracks so I don't need to handle the brush and wood much either... works for me....
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Yes, you have a nice 75 footer. I would use that thing every day. If you can slam down trees and make 3-4K a day then your a smart man using your equipment that you have to it's fullest. Every business model is different. It a comes down to costs. You've been in the game a long time so I image your costs are really low compared to your competition and business starting out.
I use the crane to prune all the time. I have picked larger dead sections out of declining beach trees to not disturb the valuable lower live limbs. I have used it for a good tie in point to access tough to reach trees. They have there place if you know how to use them.
 
If it is strobert tree they seamed to be a pretty legitimate company. I checked out their Facebook page and they seam on the up and up. Not just a fly by night removal crew that happened to buy a crane one day to do tree work. I would really like more info on what went wrong in this situation.
I can understand the human error of mis-juding the weight of a pick. However, in order for that weight to take a crane down in most cases you need to REALLY have goofed up the weight. That is usually more common on the smaller cranes. This crane was large with some serious counterweights. I image it came over from poor set-up. But who really knows at this time.
 
Does this look like a crane job???
Obviously a lot of variables that we don't know.... BUT that looks like quick work with the bucket and skid steer..
 

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