COW HITCH - ISA vs. TCIA

[Stephen Moore]

Man your writing is hard to understand! But I think I get what you are saying?

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

Perhaps if you had a more specific point or questions could help.

 

[*useless info*]

Clock Hitch / teepee again:

note pulls across rope support columns on tree, like Clock Hitch
.

 

[Brocky]

Hi useless, thanks for the post. In the past, I have used the clock hitch wrapped as tight as possible for the most strength, or so I thought. The use of table legs and 2x4s helps to illustrate the idea better.
If you extend the teepee for better strength retention, is there a point where further extension only adds minimal benefit?

Edit: sorry, it was TreeSpyder who used the 2x4s, I got you two mixed up for some reason!

 

[*useless info*]

Clock tight to tree is an example of forces capitalising on leveraging grip on tree more than support leg function.
Note how support is inline vs. grip by cross axis to inline type forces.
.
I'm saying ALL support is number of pristine tension or compression columns as potential, then tax away like money all is finite.
>>less degradations by angle, splices etc.>> no splices leaves all angle considerations.
>>angle calc is simply cosine as a percentage of potential column force or distance retained
>>as mnemonic I started calling it columnSine, to my cos /cause of retaining as much power/distance/support on original column
.
So the pattern you ask about is simply cosine scale.
This is most important part, been waiting to get to.
cosine that shows retained column is 1.000 @ no deflection /pure inline
>>then is 0.0000 @ 90 degree
BUT it starts it's decrease very slowly, but decreases very rapidly later.
So that cos is 1@0degrees, but still .707@45degrees
>>but then loses all of that .707 on the next 45 degrees much more volatile impacts of change at flatter end of scale.
Cosine still .5@60degrees, next 15 drops almost in half to .26@75degrees
So answer is want to have at most 120 spread,for 60degrees deflection each side to have half potential, after that, support quickly degrades.
Would say can tolerate 60 spread, 30deflction each side and retain 86% as possible target, 30spread of 15deflection each retains 96% per side so probably least productive to close spread tighter than Vulcan salute, so for safety remember 'live long and prosper'!

.
So to know cosine scale of every 15degrees shows many things quickly.
>>scale backwards 0@0, 1@90 is sine scale shows leverage. Both cos,sin .707@45 halfway point
So sin leverage jumps from 0 to .707 in first 45, while cos falls slowly from 1 to .707 in same first 45
>>then cosine jumps from .707 to 0 in next 45 as sine crawls from .707 up to 1.
Consider cosine for architecture and support, sine as sin against support cause/cos
>>so using a wrench, lever is the bastardisation of architecture theory as capitalizes on the sin product and not support cause(cos). Thus wrench presents mini Ibeam on short axis across to fight sine expressed.
2 mirrored scales, lots of answers and interesting variances in impacts of change , and to get feel for when in ranges of such radical changes, trade offs etc.
.
post pic later of slow fall of cosine and safety hand checks for spread angles.
I think every 15 degrees scale should be standard well known benchmarks.

 

[evo]

Clock tight to tree is an example of forces capitalising on leveraging grip on tree more than support leg function.
Note how support is inline vs. grip by cross axis to inline type forces.
.
I'm saying ALL support is number of pristine tension or compression columns as potential, then tax away like money all is finite.
>>less degradations by angle, splices etc.>> no splices leaves all angle considerations.
>>angle calc is simply cosine as a percentage of potential column force or distance retained
>>as mnemonic I started calling it columnSine, to my cos /cause of retaining as much power/distance/support on original column
.
So the pattern you ask about is simply cosine scale.
This is most important part, been waiting to get to.
cosine that shows retained column is 1.000 @ no deflection /pure inline
>>then is 0.0000 @ 90 degree
BUT it starts it's decrease very slowly, but decreases very rapidly later.
So that cos is 1@0degrees, but still .707@45degrees
>>but then loses all of that .707 on the next 45 degrees much more volatile impacts of change at flatter end of scale.
Cosine still .5@60degrees, next 15 drops almost in half to .26@75degrees
So answer is want to have at most 120 spread,for 60degrees deflection each side to have half potential, after that, support quickly degrades.
Would say can tolerate 60 spread, 30deflction each side and retain 86% as possible target, 30spread of 15deflection each retains 96% per side so probably least productive to close spread tighter than Vulcan salute, so for safety remember 'live long and prosper'!

.
So to know cosine scale of every 15degrees shows many things quickly.
>>scale backwards 0@0, 1@90 is sine scale shows leverage. Both cos,sin .707@45 halfway point
So sin leverage jumps from 0 to .707 in first 45, while cos falls slowly from 1 to .707 in same first 45
>>then cosine jumps from .707 to 0 in next 45 as sine crawls from .707 up to 1.
Consider cosine for architecture and support, sine as sin against support cause/cos
>>so using a wrench, lever is the bastardisation of architecture theory as capitalizes on the sin product and not support cause(cos). Thus wrench presents mini Ibeam on short axis across to fight sine expressed.
2 mirrored scales, lots of answers and interesting variances in impacts of change , and to get feel for when in ranges of such radical changes, trade offs etc.
.
post pic later of slow fall of cosine and safety hand checks for spread angles.
I think every 15 degrees scale should be standard well known benchmarks.

Shhhh, I won’t reveal your super hero name. Like the new handle

 

[Stephen Moore]

Fuck sakes, you guys over think the shit out of this. It’s easy, use bigger gear than you need and an appropriate hitch. No magic! Never fails!

 

[*useless info*]

NO SIR PLEASE!
.
Better gear can still be used correctly, for safer SWL ratios and lower wear.
Better gear not always available.
If simply know what is correct, where the red lines are, and volatile ranges as Brocky asks , can make best setup 1st time in same amount of time and materials as most correct art of weapons of math destruction and as a professional of lowest risk and highest performance in least amount of materials and time. Using larger gear so can take rather than manage forces can give higher loading, risking higher recoil if fails.
.
If hands groom all to better alignment , so much so habitually that eye hangs on out of line points as out of place to quickly define weakest point in chain to fortify to stronger rig. This is a journey, and if start now, promise will be much farther with it next year. Once catch the pattern clearly, see in all things around you re-enforcing it!
.
Brocky simply asks greatest question of RED LINES of efficiency and risk. Like if had been on this path of thought for a decade, what are the shortcuts! Plus, all this cosine stuff backwards is sine/leverage of lean!!
.

.
NOTE SPECIFICALLY FIRST HALF OF INCREASE DEFLECTION TO 45 DEGREES COS DROPS 29% ALMOST SAME AS DROP IN LAST 15 DEGREES, LOTS MORE AMPLITUDE OF CHANGE IN COS COLUMN CALC CLOSER AND CLOSER TO FLAT !!
.
i l-earned the 30,60,120 hand spread checks from 3 different old bosses, in 3 different years, different jobs
>>added 90 degree check
>>can't find this on web but served me well over a few decades!
.
So not much use in fighting for less than 30 degrees teepee/beak spread, almost 97% tensile good enough @ 15 degree legs!
Nominal changes to halfway point 90degrees spread teepee 45 degrees each leg
Dangerously fast changing LOSS against efforts greater/flatter than 120degree spread
>>rule of thumb: bend rope to 2 legs of 120degrees spread; is strength of 1 leg inline
SEPARATE ROPES SAME MATH,BUT CAN'T SELF EQUALIZE SHARING SO IS DIFFERENT
.
Sine is reverse, high impact of change closest to pure inline 0 degrees
>>so when climber has lifeline straight over head is getting full 100% strength no side force.
BUT if line is at 15 degrees (change from only from noon to 12:30 on clock)
>>is still getting ~97% of line tension pulling up
BUT is getting ~26% of line tension pulling sideways /off balance
>>jumps to 50% sine at 1o'clock 30 degrees trying to pull climber off balance
Remember feeling that and not understanding why so strong pull off balance at such soft angle? >>ANSWERED! remember that feeling, feel in all seen 15/30 degree angles!!!!
.
By extension: tree CoG @ 15 degrees lean will force hinge strength of potential full 90 degree leveraged x 26.6%,but in next click of 15 degrees will face load of 50% x potential full 90 degree leveraged. So force rope with tree to fold earlier, meatier hinge of greater than potential full 90 degree leveraged x 26.6% to better face next 15degree click of 50% of potential leverage. So rope/wedge towards target 'exercises' hinge stronger until 'first folding' movement. Wedge/rope pushes/ pulls after this 'first folding' are like still carrying 80# exercise weight while trying to win olympic race. Only use extra forces to tax against efforts for exercise for olympics, not to tax during actual performance!
.
These cosine/sine numbers are about the key to everything!

 

[*useless info*]

No Math View:
supports should be on inline columns for most support/efficiency from a beam or rope device.
exception: using non-column side force to wrench leverage.
Rigid device can do, but rope doesn't natively resist on the cross axis like a wrench
>>until tighten rope iron bar tight,and then it resists bend
>>so therefore can leverage against the rope as a rigid device!
This is partially where i get my model of rope as a wonder
>>is mallable, formable so much so don't need to weld, nor nail it
>>but when loaded forges itself instantly into rigid(kinda) support device.
>> for teardown just relax line and disassemble (in good knots)
>>instantly ready to go again or fold away to almost nothing,very much unlike rigid supports!

When Brion Toss speaks of losing a capstan/winch handle;
he means like 400+ years ago a few salt soaked men alone on ocean without electricity, nor gas, food running out, already buried someone at sea , trusting the winds and waves, needing high tension adjustment of rope tensions to sails and capstan/wench handle breaks or gets washed over board in storm so this is how you save your life and bro's type of losing winch handle shituation.....
.
capitalizing on SINE , pulling across rope column

.
revers strategy back to capitalizing on cosine for column support:
Note again the clean, sweet, simplicity of this mountain/rescue build with pristine legs and long,sharp beak/teepee serving out proper support column. Weakness of seam buried away from the hits, also left in an inspectable 'pocket' position on load side. Same gear deployed better for a target of support column against pull:

This doesn't wrench grip as tight on tree as previous/ClockHitch type pulls, uses architechture for support column against pulls instead. So we allow 'seam' to seat to tree keeping it buffered from primary loading hits for strength and easier untying, is inspectable AND gives some grip back around tree for security!