COW HITCH - ISA vs. TCIA

[Tr33Climb3r]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe that each of these artist's renditions that has been mentioned in each one of these publications is the work of the same artist, Bryan Kotwica. He is a practicing arborist as well as an accomplished artist, and it would make sense if the hitches his crew uses change slightly over time.

Maybe this helps.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand as time goes on things change. Nothing against the artist because Bryan Kotwica creates amazing illustrations. Sherrill should have had him draw a new one.

 

[Tony]

The whole genesis of the longer eye on block and porta wrap slings for Sherrill started with Sean Gear. Accomplished arborist, Trainer and splicer he thought over the long term a larger eye would strain the throat of the splice less.

It quickly became apparent that you could keep the throat of the knot tighter as well because the long eye was not as stiff as tying at the splice's throat.

Both valid points worth considering. As for added strength. If your SWL is not a whole butt-load bigger for your sling than your lowering line, you have more problems than a weakened splice due to knot tying.

To my knowledge strength loss/ gain has never been tested in that configuration. Kinda moot, as stated above.

Tony

 

[born2climb]

After taking two half hitches, I do whatever is necessary to deal with the excess tail. As it is not load bearing, it makes no difference how it is dealt with, so long as it is kept from interfering with the rigging.

 

[knudeNoggin]

Whiz & Tony opine:
[ QUOTE ]
> the finish is to keep the [tail] of the sling out of the running rigging,
> Tucking the tail just gets it out of the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good point, but I suggest that there can be some gain and
need for security (below).

[Re Sherrill's imageS (2 --bigger, w/arrow'd finish, & smaller, finished)]
[ QUOTE ]
That illustration is consistent with illustrations in: ...

[/ QUOTE ]
Those images aren't even consistent with <u>themselves</u>!
Which, given,
[ QUOTE ]
When I tie a cow hitch [+ BH], I tie it exactly like the Sherrilltree illustration.

[/ QUOTE ]
begs the question Which one?!

[ QUOTE ]
&gt; If you can't tuck will it still be considered good with just a half hitch?
+
&gt; If you have to wrap the tail then why not just use a timber hitch?

[/ QUOTE ]
Part 1, because of this:
[ QUOTE ]
I had one experience where I put one half hitch and did not tuck the tail and the the hitch almost slid through.

[/ QUOTE ]
A mere half-hitch of the tail is not necessarily all so secure,
so easily made tight and staying that way; it will tend to grip
the mainline and be drawn away from the Cow's collar --making
a gap that enables loosening. The further tucking of the tail
(or tying a stopper knot at the half-hitch) will protect the HH
from loosening AND being drawn away.

Another way to redress this vulnerability to loosen
is to take the half-hitch around BOTH the side of the Cow's collar
and the mainline, nipping these two diameters and getting a
surer lock; a question is Will that be (too) hard to untie?!

(And there is a similar improvement to finishing the clove hitch,
putting in a sort of bowlinesque "collar" with a secure hold on
the tail; but it's less slack-secure than the above cow finish.)

Part 2 : the cow gives better *grip* on the spar to stay in place,
with its two strands around vs. the timber hitch's one.

As for where to tuck,
[ QUOTE ]
I only tuck under the spliced eye end.
That's the end that will cinch once the eye is loaded.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is true in that this is the heavily loaded strand,
but it is also moving **OUT** from the knot, and would
tend to pull the tail LOOSER rather than tighter; and it
means that the tail interposes between the loaded line
and the bark --might be preferable to let the load go
against the tree, purely, here.
But tucking back under the tail part itself is problematic in terms of tightening
--you can't haul the half-hitch snug &amp; tight if you need to tuck under its part.
So, one needs to do a bit of working it tight : make the HH &amp; tuck(s), then
set the HH tight, and pull slack out w/the tuck.

[ QUOTE ]
tie the knot over the two parts of the eye splice not on the taper of the splice because this is been proven to break at a lower load.
Or does this really not matter.

[/ QUOTE ]
One might ask What's the difference in break force?
It's likely a case that, were the difference in that possible to have
effect in practice, you should be using a stronger sling!
But, yes, as noted, the illustration shows a small eye.


*kN*

 

[roo_two]

[ QUOTE ]
COW HITCH - ISA vs. TCIA

There is a considerable discrepancy with how the Cow Hitch is shown in the publications by ISA and TCIA. The discrepancy is with the finish, that is, the better half and tucks.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's hardly a just Cow Hitch anymore by the time your done with all the tucking and re-tucking.

Why not something simpler? Simply spiral up the trunk a couple times and finish off with a Gnat Hitch. (The diagram shows only a single pass around the object)

Then, tighten and load up.

 

[upontrees]

On dismantling operations of the stem love use cow hitch instead of timber hitch because is easy and fast to tie an untie. Also when I finish to fell a section and i move down , cow hitch need only to untie the the two half hitch to loose it so you can slip down the rigging sistem to the next section.

That is why I think that the wraps of the tail around the rope is redundant and i personally simply stuck the tail just to take it away from the rigging pulley.


PS. sorry for my english

 

[SingleJack]

Your english is fine ... quite readable ... better than many natives - LOL.

Those are all good points.

Welcome to the buzz

 

[KevinS]

I'd say either works just as well as the others one locks of with halh hitces the other wraps like a timber hitch all good knots all strong knots.

The way to actually figure out which is superior is test them head to head and go with the champ if you do this please let us all know the outcome

Thanks

 

[speelyei]

Personally, I don't care for either knot.
Using those systems means I'm blocking down large wood, and that really cuts into chatting and margarita time.
A blender and a surfboard, now that's some activity worth obsessing about!

 

[easyphloem]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't care for either knot.
Using those systems means I'm blocking down large wood, and that really cuts into chatting and margarita time.
A blender and a surfboard, now that's some activity worth obsessing about!

[/ QUOTE ]

Promote this man!


SZ

 

[speelyei]

finally, someone with clarity of vision.

 

[knudeNoggin]

Here's a pic from the recent (14th April, nice day!)
MAC-ISA TreeClimbing Competition in Wheaton, Maryland.

Cow &amp; Better Half, long tail wrapped twice around the (not skinny!) tree,
and tail dogged at the end.

*kN*

 

[speelyei]

That was a great pic! I'm not talking about that sling and stuff, either. Look in the background... folding table, lawn chair, garbage can with a bottle underneath it... Now that's a jobsite set-up I can get behind!
I brought the blender, where can I set these Jimmy Buffett CD's!? Hell yeah! I'm working my tail off over here, and you can call it "partying" if ya wants to!

 

[knudeNoggin]

[ QUOTE ]
That was a great pic! I'm not talking about that sling and stuff, either. Look in the background... folding table, lawn chair, garbage can with a bottle underneath it... Now that's a jobsite set-up I can get behind!

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but ... <u>rules</u> --ya gotta heed the Rules!
Maybe a "full(er) disclosure" pic would help.

 

[Tree worker9]

Makes no difference. The knot is finished when you tie the first half hitch. Tie a second if you want. Tie a third. Perhaps cut the tail off and hope all your rigging points will forevermore be the same diameter

Tucking the tail just gets it out of the way.

Tony

I totally agree with Tony
I mooo ve to put his statment on the cow hitch in the rigging constitution. No need to discuss or think about it again. Fact.

 

[TimBr]

@Tree worker9; Cool older thread you've brought to the surface, here. Thanks.

Tim

 

[Stephen Moore]

Both are good, in fact both are overkill. You can do the same thing as a basic or modified timber hitch. I’ve never pulled out any forms of these. Often I will use modified timber merely to get rid of extra rope to tidy stuff up.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Another old topic that still has life.

Clock hitch...look it up

 

[JeffGu]

A horrid configuration where all of the choking action is on the sling/rope itself, and as the load increases, the friction is lessened on the device side of the rope/tree interface, and drastically increased on the opposite side of the rope/tree interface... on a tapered tree!

A cow hitch, on the other hand, maintains a configuration where the choking action is concentrated at the device, and as the load increases the friction increases virtually all the way around the tree... which is why it manages to hold the device in position even on a tapered tree. The amount of friction applied to all of the sling/rope increases with load increase, which creates enough resistance to vertical travel to keep it in place. Of course, with increased taper (think bald cypress) any hitch can start slipping, as it can with excessive load forces, and stretch will loosen it up, as well.

They should call it the Clockwork Orange Hitch.. it's criminal to use that thing.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

To original question of Cow Hitch types:
The 'front end' that takes the loading is same architecture, even several turns deep.
So same strength/efficiency of line used.
Arguments are mostly to what kind of 'keeper' to finish this lock with.
>>actually best Nip is on Equal and Opposite side of support than load pull for this.
.

: (Clock Hitch)
They should call it the Clockwork Orange Hitch.. it's criminal to use that thing.
(i don't think that is sarcasm!)

.
Clock provides 2 legs of support, but pulls crosswise on them, not inline properly
.
The arch in architecture is to never pull flat across for inline support like this!
This is all geometric architecture.
If Cow Hitch is only ~70% efficient
>>that means cosine of loaded rope angle is ~.70
>>that means Cow has ~45degree distortion on most loaded deformity/bend/arc
.
Just as can calc how high a 10ft 2x4 will reach at 30degree angle
>>(will reach /preserve 8.66ft of 10ft length potential upwards)
Use same cosine to calc 1000# line tension at 30 degrees deflection will give 866#upward support.
.

.
i think Tensionless Hitch that doesn't bend own loaded Standing Part only has host mount as deformity to lose rope efficiency.
Likewise, even a crossed turn like Clove(still continuous direction on support) on fair size host mount will have all deformities on support anchor (if allowed to feed from side naturally like Tensionless).
.
As we go to Backhand(that reverse direction) type hitches (Cow, Timber) that offside(Dent term for hinging) leg comes around and pulls Standing Part to center(from Natural side position) we get more efficiency loss than just from support deformities.
BUT, if we just don't bend the Standing Part with a Turn, but rather GRIP Standing Part to pull more inline, mitigate some deformity (and perhaps provide alternate support force route) we tend to see more efficiency.
.
Long ago KnudeNoggin taught me any such effect can be lost if take a Round Turn on support before Round Turn on Standing Part.
This makes sense to me because that would reduce flow of force to Round Turn to GRIP Standing Part, so can not then provide this property.
.
Long eyes allow 'seam' of knot or splice to be buried in the works away from direct brunt of loading that front line positions get before force reducing frictions etc. Want to only expose pristine line parts to fullest loading, no wear spots or 'exposed seams'.
.
This mountain/rescue standard buries the seam from the hit, and leaves it on front side in inspectable location. BUT (per previous chart) can be as bad as Clock, if no teepee(beak) /flat on anchor. Only by providing more length to relax line angle to more inline, do we make it stronger per leg of support.
.