cornus nuttalli split/strange cobra config.

Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Kathy,

I would consider using lag threaded rods and nuts as opposed to machine threaded ones. In my experience with bracing decaying trees lag threads offer the most grip "for the buck", if you will. They are threaded into the wood as well as secured with nuts and washers on the ends.

They may be hard to fine, but a machine shop can square you away with the materials for a reasonable price.

Tony
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Hey everyone,

Kathy clued me in on this thread and I have been lurking!

I was the consulting arborist that helped Kathy's client make the decision...several years ago... to live with the old dogwood. We discussed their risk tolerance and I pointed out that their house would not be heavily damaged if the tree split...or if one of the two leadrs broke out. On the street side the tree would have more target = garden, wall, sidewalk and parked cars. The only part of this tree that is large is the trunk...which I determined would fall side toward the house and one side toward the street with the big part in the yard.

I suggested the ring cable...for this specific tree...as the defect that is most likely to fail IMO is the split trunk. I also explained that the tree should be monitored regularly.

As Kathy's client pointed out they want to keep the tree!

I climbed the tree and did a close inspection. I have lots of experience with large old declining specimnens of this species. We rarley see large healthy trees due to dogwood anthracnose. I also find that they survive for a long time after disturbance if they make it initially...often with severe decay. The species produces very strong reaction wood. When I climbed the tree I rocked and rolled and watched the split etc. I looked a the root crown and did not expect a basal failure...at that time.

Yes it is an unorthodox use of cable....one that I have used many times with steel cable and more recently with Cobra. I would never suggest this method be used where the tree will not be inspected regularly.

Cabling the two tops together...you could do that...it would be very visible. I do not favor trying to through bolt a decayed tree like this one. I have seen too many trees where this approach has resulted...at best... in no gain for the tree.

Cutting back this tree in the declining condition it is in would also be something I would not recommend.

I've enjoyed this thread...especially the comments about the lack of complete information about the tree.

I have been keeping up on the latest science regarding cabling and bracing trees and I agree with kathy that there are many cables installed incorrectly or in a manner that wo't really help things. I don't recommend bolting trees with internal decay. If you must do it...IMO... bolt only through healthy zylem

I will start another thread to keep the discussion about "heroic" measures to manage old or defective trees.

Scott
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Scott Baker said "I don't recommend bolting trees with internal decay. If you must do it...IMO... bolt only through healthy zylem"

I have no idea what this means. Do you mean bolt where there is no decay, or bolt through the zylem but not the phloem?

It is my experience that when you need to bolt there is often a lot of damage done to the tree already and bolting through areas of no decay is hard as they largely do not exist. Trees in which a split has occured will by definition have decay organisms present, wether the wood has been visibly compromised or not.

Tony said "I would consider using lag threaded rods and nuts as opposed to machine threaded ones. In my experience with bracing decaying trees lag threads offer the most grip "for the buck", if you will. They are threaded into the wood as well as secured with nuts and washers on the ends."

I am not sure this is possible. I believe lag threaded rods do not have nuts associated with them. Machine threaded rod comes in fine and standard (as well as BSA metric etc.). When bracing a tree, the backing plate wether it be a washer and nut, or plate and nut, hold the tree in conjuction with the treaded rod, not the threads.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
Tony said "I would consider using lag threaded rods and nuts as opposed to machine threaded ones. In my experience with bracing decaying trees lag threads offer the most grip "for the buck", if you will. They are threaded into the wood as well as secured with nuts and washers on the ends."

I am not sure this is possible. I believe lag threaded rods do not have nuts associated with them...

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony is correct. Lag threaded rods do come with nuts and the rod is threaded into the tree like a screw. The threads help hold the tree together, similar to a screw holding two boards together.

See ANSI A300 (Part 3)-2006 and the respective BMP.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tony said "I would consider using lag threaded rods and nuts as opposed to machine threaded ones. In my experience with bracing decaying trees lag threads offer the most grip "for the buck", if you will. They are threaded into the wood as well as secured with nuts and washers on the ends."

I am not sure this is possible. I believe lag threaded rods do not have nuts associated with them...

[/ QUOTE ]

Tony is correct. Lag threaded rods do come with nuts and the rod is threaded into the tree like a screw. The threads help hold the tree together, similar to a screw holding two boards together.

See ANSI A300 (Part 3)-2006 and the respective BMP.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do you think that would still be practical, if a consulting arborist who had seen the tree, believed, or said, that there was internal decay?
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Mario, internal decay is not a death sentence which makes treatment impractical. Many trees have internal decay.

" I do not favor trying to through bolt a decayed tree like this one. I have seen too many trees where this approach has resulted...at best... in no gain for the tree."

Hi Scott, old chap. Please explain. I'm not eager to wound, but isn't increased stability a gain for the tree?
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Makh are you speaking of rod and nuts or a lag-threaded bolt? The rest of the world does not use ANSI standards so I do not have a copy.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
Mario, internal decay is not a death sentence which makes treatment impractical. Many trees have internal decay.

" I do not favor trying to through bolt a decayed tree like this one. I have seen too many trees where this approach has resulted...at best... in no gain for the tree."

Hi Scott, old chap. Please explain. I'm not eager to wound, but isn't increased stability a gain for the tree?

[/ QUOTE ]

Guy what are you talking about? The question was related to bolting or the means of bolting pertaining to the previous few replies. Had nothing to do with decay being a death sentence. Consider going back to the other thread and see the question that the one member / user asked you about not addressing what I wrote. He knew exactly what I was saying.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

[ QUOTE ]


That tree has weak decayed deadwood going "FEET" down into the leader or trunk.

If you can't visualize that kind of decay, consider passing the project along to another arborist, so the bracing or removal is managed appropriately.




[/ QUOTE ]
Just to point out- the qualifier "if" does not soften the arrogance of the latter part of that quote, something that does come off to me as condescending and "personal". If I was spoken to like that, I would take it personally, as an insult, regardless of the veracity of the statement. You are basically saying, "if you don't agree with what I'm saying, then maybe you should find someone who does and get them to do what I think is right." That's how it looked to me, and I'm not sure how else that statement could be read.
Now, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your assessment, only saying you are second-guessing from afar, and you should keep that in mind and please moderate your language accordingly.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

" I do not favor trying to through bolt a decayed tree like this one. I have seen too many trees where this approach has resulted...at best... in no gain for the tree."

Hi Scott, old chap. Please explain. I'm not eager to wound, but isn't increased stability a gain for the tree?


How would stability be increased? Stability generally refers to root-plates and as such bolting does not appear to have much to do with stability. It might be argued that by adding rigidity to two "stems" that more force is transfered to the root plate and cause greater movement and thus decreased stability.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


That tree has weak decayed deadwood going "FEET" down into the leader or trunk.

If you can't visualize that kind of decay, consider passing the project along to another arborist, so the bracing or removal is managed appropriately.




[/ QUOTE ]
That's how it looked to me, and I'm not sure how else that statement could be read.


[/ QUOTE ]

The other way, may be one way that you may not want to consider. You may be interpretting it according to how you are willing to "take it" (as you indicated). You wrote about how you would "take it".

You see, I did not say "if you can't visualize THAT decay". Rather, I wrote "if you can't visualize that KIND of decay".

That makes a big difference.

Ever read a sripture verse where different versions move a comma on either side of the word "today"?

"Verily I say unto thee, (comma) TODAY thou shalt be with me in paradise"

"Verily I say unto thee today, (comma) thou SHALT be with me in paradise"

Not only does the position of a comma totally alter the meaning of a statement, but so does the presence or absence of words.

So as a friendly suggestion, consider accepting other interpretations that you are willing to take. You may discover several options.

You seem to interested in good communication, judging from your post, so that's the best idea I can contribute.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
The question was related to bolting or the means of bolting pertaining to the previous few replies. Had nothing to do with decay being a death sentence.

[/ QUOTE ]You said "So do you think that would still be practical, if a consulting arborist who had seen the tree, believed, or said, that there was internal decay?"

mr, "stability" refers to roots or aboveground parts.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The question was related to bolting or the means of bolting pertaining to the previous few replies. Had nothing to do with decay being a death sentence.

[/ QUOTE ]You said "So do you think that would still be practical, if a consulting arborist who had seen the tree, believed, or said, that there was internal decay?"

mr, "stability" refers to roots or aboveground parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting closer.

And the consulting arborist replied about bolting, decay and preserving trees.

He's the guy who chimed-in late on this thread, who had been out to see that tree, so I recall reading.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

"mr, "stability" refers to roots or aboveground parts."

Guy you need to be a little more precise in your teminology. Stability of a tree refers to toppling (out of the ground). You can perhaps stabilize a crack, but that does not give the above ground parts stability.

Since the above ground parts are attached to the roots (plate) they may be instable if the root plate is instable but if they break above ground it does not mean they are instable. They may be considered unstable by some people (stems allows move to some extent) but this seems to me to be incorrect terminology.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
Stability of a tree refers to toppling (out of the ground).

[/ QUOTE ]mr, I don't think the arb glossary defines this, but we speak of stable branch unions and stable stems, not just of stable rootplates. I'll poll the audience.
grin.gif
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
Makh are you speaking of rod and nuts or a lag-threaded bolt?

[/ QUOTE ]


Lag threaded rods (and nuts). Sherrill and Karl Kummerling carry them.


[ QUOTE ]
The rest of the world does not use ANSI standards so I do not have a copy.

[/ QUOTE ]


I looked at your profile, but it doesn't say where you are located. Are there bracing standards for trees where you work? Even if you are not bound by ANSI, ANSI and the BMP's still give some good information.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

mrtree, I get where you're coming from, but as far as I know, in arboricultural terminology "stability" is not the exclusive nomenclature used in this instance for roots or root plates. I suppose it could be argued that it may be more appropriately used in that case, though.
 
Hi Kathy,

Bringing photos to Treebuzz and asking opinions tells me that you not only care alot about what you do, but also that you value other opinions and receive them with an open mind. That is great. I have done the same myself.

The value of this tree has been spelled out by your client. They want to save the tree for as long as possible. It means a lot to them. That is great. Do everything you can to help her.


I worked on a similar project this afternoon. It was a 115' tall Tulip tree. It lost a large lead near the center of the crown at around 40' some years ago. The rest of that leader is still in place and has a high level of risk to it now. She (client) is a wonderful older woman (90 yrs. or so) who I have worked for my whole career. She is very nervous of the lead failing towards the house. It also threatens the neighbors.

Now, I'd probably remove it, but she doesn't want it to go yet. I have explained evrything I can to her and she still wants to do whatever we can to keep it and limit the risk. So, we are going to "crown reduce" the tree to about 75'. Do I want to do this? No. But I want to now that my client does.
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
Now, I'd probably remove it, but she doesn't want it to go yet. I have explained evrything I can to her and she still wants to do whatever we can to keep it and limit the risk. So, we are going to "crown reduce" the tree to about 75'. Do I want to do this? No. But I want to now that my client does.
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes it seems that when companies without Certified Arborists remove large sections off tree tops, we call it "topping".
grin.gif


But when Certified Arborists do it, we call it "crown reduction".
grin.gif


Often we look at tree care from the inside looking out.

Sometimes I think people see us do our "crown reductions" and get it mixed up with "topping" because they don't understand the difference in technique and training.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes it seems that when companies without Certified Arborists remove large sections off tree tops, we call it "topping".
But when Certified Arborists do it, we call it "crown reduction".

[/ QUOTE ]what matters is where and how the cuts are made. There is a big difference (though I agree on some jobs it is blurred); please read the standards and bmp's. Topping uses internodal cuts at predetermined locations.

Mark if that was my tree, it would be reduced(maybe not that much), even on that fast-rotting species. The key is aftercare.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom