cornus nuttalli split/strange cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
what one should consider to be the location of the branch union, once an included bark situation has turned into an open splt. IOW, the original branch union was at the top of the crack, before it split. For purposes of determining installation height, does one now consider the union to be down at the bottom of the split

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point Fred...

Isn't is best to lean toward the safer and most stable of two options when doing tree work? That may be the better way to determine the answer.

In reference to bolting, can the small point of compression - like a washer or nut - which is not an attachment, be equated with a natural point of attachement?

This may be a good opportunity for anyone who has product instructions laying around, to post some contents.

Does the manufacturer of a bracing system, mean "union" when they say "union"? Does misinterpretation or deviation from their instructions leave an arborist liable? Can diferrent configurations be used, and have the contract protect the arborist. Really, the arborist and people need protection even more importantly than trees.

Anyhow, the concept in your last reply was the first time I'd read it in a forum. And as technical as municipalities are expecting arborists to get these days, it's probably worth thinking about.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

MD,

Since all I have to go on is the remains of the included bark tree I can't do a proper post failure diagnosis. That said...I have cabled many similar trees, and worse, and also had to remove too many with similar, and better, architecture that weren't cabled/pruned. Too bad because most of the failures could have been prevented with proper cabling/pruning.

Jumping on people's judgements based on a couple of pictures and no more is not really polite. Both you and Kathy are skilled pros. I know from reading both of your comments over the years that you will make good judgements.

We all sit in the comfort of our chairs and look at a couple of two dimensional pics and then play armchair arbos about other people's decisions. Not fair...
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

Fred,

I've never considered the idea before. It makes sense to consider the top bolt the union though.

When I've installed hybrid systems, ie...bolt a cracked trunk, possible steel cable really low but just above the branch union, then dynamic cable above I have sort of looked at the steel cable as a flexible through-bolt since it is there to limit trunk movement like a bolt. Most of the time the tree presents a more logical structural position for the upper cables that seem to be around 2/3 of the height rather than a mathematical position.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

I didn't jump on anybody Tom. (You read all my replies?)

If someone is going to post a couple of pictures in a forum, anybody is free to give an opinion. You just gave yours - right?

Any of us are free to look at a photo, and say how we believe it should be handled, based on how we interpret the image. If we read the image right, there's no big problem. Even if we misinterpreted the image, there's no problem. Because if perfection in opinions is needed, then forums ain't the place.

Over the past years, I've posted hundreds of images. And every time I posted them, I naturally expected every reader to form some kind of thought or opinion about each image, whether they are right or wrong; agree or disagree.

Now in your statement here...

[ QUOTE ]
Jumping on people's judgements based on a couple of pictures and no more is not really polite. Both you and Kathy are skilled pros. I know from reading both of your comments over the years that you will make good judgements.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are incorrect. But I don't think you are jumping my case. It's your opinion. If you speculated that I jumped someone's case, then you have done so yourself right here, and would be impolite.

We may have a matter of people not paying close attention to exactly what was written.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

[ QUOTE ]
Cabling and bracing article starting on page 147

http://www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/uf/utrmm/chptr5_sec1.pdf

MD,

I did read the whole thread, I just joined late in the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better late than never
grin.gif


Honestly, if there are over 4 pages of replies, I rarely go back to more than reading the first page, then jump in with the last page. Especially if its like 12 pages.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

Kathy, good job posting this and staying focused on the tree. Your answers are on page 25 of the standards and on page 17-21 of the BMP's. It looks like bracing is all the tree needs. If the diameter is 8-14" it gets 3 half-inch rods.

To do (or comment on) any tree work competently, one should be familiar with the standards and BMP's. If not, get familiar with them. What better resource is there? BMP's are what, $7?

I agree with your assessment of dogwood's decay resistance in general. C. florida takes a long time to rot. I see no reason to prune the tree for stability if it is properly braced; 1/2" of steel x 3 is pretty strong.

Whoever installed the Cobra did not understand that the material is not friction-resistant, so it can be abraded by the bark when the tree moves. I took a cobra out of a sugar maple that was wrapped like that once and broke; fortunately it did not fail.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

[ QUOTE ]
C. florida <font color="blue"> takes a long time to rot </font> . ... I see no reason to prune the tree for stability if it is properly braced; 1/2" of steel x 3 is pretty strong.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you concur that this particular Dogwood's wood has been rotting for a long time as shown in this image (if it posts right) - a link to one of the attached images near thread's start.

Would you estimate that this decay merges with the deadwood and decay between the cracked sections?

I agree with the time it takes dogwood to rot. So this image really "jumped" out as a core sample into history. The damage has been going on for a long time - we can all agree on that.

In addtion to other damage noted earlier, this tree's flaking bark may indicate sunburn damage as well. The close-up photos really expose the severity of damage in this tree.

If I was going to keep this tree (hypothetically), I would definitely do some pruning, like removal of as much of this big exposed deadwood as reasonable.
 

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Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

Nice job on the picture, Mario. Yes removing deadwood, that goes without saying. In many cases, risk cannot be assessed until it is out. The stem on the right is decaying, true, and it is also adding woundwood, which in one species anyway is 40% stronger than regular wood. So that has to be considered when assessing strength loss and describing management options.

Talking about trees with 2-dimensional peeks has its limits. It's be nice to see for instance whether the Cobra has the sleeve on that right stem. I assumed it did not because I could not see it, but we all know what assuming can do. Either way, it seems the pressure may be great enough to constrict that tissue, accelerating the decline.
 
Re: The decay is probably worse than you think

[ QUOTE ]
Nice job on the picture, Mario. Yes removing deadwood, that goes without saying. In many cases, risk cannot be assessed until it is out. The stem on the right is decaying, true, and it is also adding woundwood, which in one species anyway is 40% stronger than regular wood. So that has to be considered when assessing strength loss and describing management options.

Talking about trees with 2-dimensional peeks has its limits. It's be nice to see for instance whether the Cobra has the sleeve on that right stem. I assumed it did not because I could not see it, but we all know what assuming can do. Either way, it seems the pressure may be great enough to constrict that tissue, accelerating the decline.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's bit big of a photo for a post.

But it's harder than heck to see what posts have attachments here many times.

The only forum I've seen that gets around it, beside lawnsite with its images in the reply, is the UBC forums that make a thumbnail.

Hey, speaking of Dogwood, did you ever see the woodworker Roy Underhill on TV, talking about how dogwood could, or was, used to make threaded rods for stool seats years ago because of how hard it is?
 
nuttallii/cobra config.

thanks for chiming in guy, i welcome a more academic perspective. i did dig up my a300 re: bracing, thanks for that suggestion. i don't seem to have a copy of best management practices - good suggestion again, i'll order one.

i got an email this morning from the owner of the dogwood, who has been following the thread at my suggestion. apart from being a bit taken aback by what she referred to i think as "arrogant SOBs" on this forum, she pointed out that what she hasn't seen in this thread is any discussion of the non-monetary value the tree has for her and her husband. i'll quote her as she was quite eloquent:
"...for the record, the one thing I'm not hearing from these folks is the one thing that (my husband) and I give the most weight to in making our decisions about the future of our tree (besides real danger to others)--and that's the pure joy we get out of that tree. We don't have a million trees here...I've counted them and there are exactly 10 (while our friends in Mazama, for example, have countless trees in the riparian habitat they are conserving...when one falls, they just feel happy they weren't under it at the time!). This one tree in particular seems to be a favorite haven for birds and squirrels. I watch the activity in the tree every single day and it makes my day a better one. So while it might make financial sense to take the tree out and put the time and money into a new tree, and while certainly there is an upper limit to what it may make sense to invest in the old tree, every day without it would come at a high price for us personally."

sounds like she has made her decision.

thanks everyone for your valuable opinions, and for helping me to help a customer. i think her feeling about this tree is something most of us can relate to, since we chose this profession. sometimes that quiet moment watching a bird at dusk, or the silhouette of a tree in fog gets forgotten in the rush to bolster our professional reputations, or our worrying over liability issues. one old tree owner would like to remind us.

anyway, thanks again to all those who gave this issue some thought and i hope to be able to return the favor.
k.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
sometimes that quiet moment watching a bird at dusk, or the silhouette of a tree in fog gets forgotten in the rush to bolster our professional reputations, or our worrying over liability issues. one old tree owner would like to remind us.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Sometimes" they may be forgotten, but in most cases, are not. I work for about 900 different homeowners in Oregon, and I think that is the main thing they think about. Their interests focus heavily on what they enjoy with their eyes and ears.

Most landscape contractors and arborists I network with, or have met, seem to appreciate the same things personally. And in most cases, have little chance to forget those sensory enjoyments because that's about the only thing they have in common to discuss with their customers. So between their own enjoyment of nature, and their interaction with customer's enjoyment of nature, very little forgetting about sensory pleasures occurs, really.

Very few homeowners understand the liabilities and reputations of professional horticultural services. So when we do a reality check, its usually the "bird at dusk", or the "silhouette of a tree in fog" which can cause liability issues and professional reputations to be given a back seat.

For years, arborists have worked hard to "bolster" the sensory pleasures of homeowners. I think that the greatest gains for culture will be when homeowners as a whole, work equally as hard to "bolster" the horticulturists reputation.

Our culture and industry has a long way - not a short way - to get there. At least 10 to 15 years of cultural adjustment to go. For example, of the 4000 or so contracts I've done since 1988, requests for my LICENSE <font color="brown"> </font>number or arborist certification have occured about 4 to 6 times per year. It might be better to say ONLY 4 to 6 times per year.

Sometimes it seems odd, but I ask people to verify my license with the state of Oregon. Its one step toward helping them change their habits of not doing a license check. Or a certification check.

But currently, their thinking is not in that mode. They are more focused on the tree in the fog and the trickle in the water feature.

So in Portland anyhow, I find that outfits like Collier Arborcare, Roots and Shoots, Organicare, Etc., don't fit any kind of "rush" to bolster their reputations. They seem to be maintaining an effort to provide good tree care, safe working conditions, and customer education. It would be hard to apply the word "sometimes" to most Certified Arborists in our neck of the woods.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

I agree with the homeowner....Gone is GONE
too often people are so quick to remove trees.
I hope when im old and broke down....noone comes and removes me.
Peace
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Kathy,
I Love your approach. Especially asking the client to follow the thread. We sometimes forget how many eyes(at least I do) see these discussions.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

The best kind of client is one who values trees. That's why I advertise as an arborist, to attract those folks.

Academic? Hah! dare to crack open a book now and then and you get a repatation. BMP's are very useful gear.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
The best kind of client is one who values trees. That's why I advertise as an arborist, to attract those folks.

Academic? Hah! dare to crack open a book now and then and you get a repatation. BMP's are very useful gear.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Guy, I just noticed that on Google search, there is a "one box" showing now for a search under "arborist" like "portland arborist" - never used to be.

Was just for "portland tree service" before, like in the yellow page headings. So that's a new one. Not "portland certified arborist" yet - no "ONE BOX" for that. The one box is that small info box that shows a small street map and like 3 listings.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Kathy, I will be excited to hear how the cabling and bracing goes for you. I am also exited to hear about the amount of sound wood that is left and what pattern was chosen for your bolting. Keep us up dated with this one please.

Good luck.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

Kathy,

By including your client in this thread as an observer and a quoted participant you have added a very different dimension to Treebuzz. This is an example of how our profession has become more connected.

Lately I've been hearing about something called 'second life' on the Internet. This thread seems to be a more tangible or concrete form of second life.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

This has been a really interesting thread. Thanks very much for sharing Kathy, I learned some things here.
 
Re: nuttallii/cobra config.

[ QUOTE ]
apart from being a bit taken aback by what she referred to i think as "arrogant SOBs" on this forum, she pointed out that what she hasn't seen in this thread is any discussion of the non-monetary value the tree has for her and her husband.

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems a bit harsh to me. When you bring together some of the best and most passionate in an industry, of course there will be some debate or heated emotions when discussing issues such as this one.

Some people may be less 'skilled' at getting their point across, but it's all good stuff... (for the most part
smile.gif
)

jp
grin.gif
 
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