- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
Question to those that have used or seen these. Do these require a back up, or are they like Tree Machine's, where it has 2 or 3 redundant safety features, which eliminate the need for a back up.
CMI Twin Expedition
- Thread starter TreeStuff
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Ascenders don't need 'require' backups any more than hitches do. If you trust a hitch you'll likely trust the mechanicals too.
- Location
- Haddonfield, nj
[ QUOTE ]
Ascenders don't need 'require' backups any more than hitches do. If you trust a hitch you'll likely trust the mechanicals too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless of course they are hand ascenders not rated for the work we do, which from what I've gathered, most aren't.
Ascenders don't need 'require' backups any more than hitches do. If you trust a hitch you'll likely trust the mechanicals too.
[/ QUOTE ]
Unless of course they are hand ascenders not rated for the work we do, which from what I've gathered, most aren't.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
So now we're saying DON'T backup ascenders? I'm confused.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
[ QUOTE ]
Unless of course they are hand ascenders not rated for the work we do, which from what I've gathered, most aren't.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're making my point from another direction.
That is the right way to operate but where and when do you ever see this plan followed?
Conventional practice is to use any hitch or ascender and head up the rope. There is more collected data on how ascenders work on rope than how hitches perform. Given all of the variables for hitches THEY are a complete mystery compared to ascenders.
If the ascender is from a reputable manufacturer, in good repair and used correctly I'm not so convinced that backups/two attachments need to be required. Not that redundancy isn't a good idea of course.
Unless of course they are hand ascenders not rated for the work we do, which from what I've gathered, most aren't.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're making my point from another direction.
That is the right way to operate but where and when do you ever see this plan followed?
Conventional practice is to use any hitch or ascender and head up the rope. There is more collected data on how ascenders work on rope than how hitches perform. Given all of the variables for hitches THEY are a complete mystery compared to ascenders.
If the ascender is from a reputable manufacturer, in good repair and used correctly I'm not so convinced that backups/two attachments need to be required. Not that redundancy isn't a good idea of course.
- Location
- Austria, Europe
[ QUOTE ]
... Not that redundancy isn't a good idea of course.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very nice
... Not that redundancy isn't a good idea of course.
[/ QUOTE ]
Very nice
- Location
- Central Hardwood Belt, USA
[ QUOTE ]
Question to those that have used or seen these. Do these require a back up, or are they like Tree Machine's, where it has 2 or 3 redundant safety features, which eliminate the need for a back up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just two beyond the cams themselves.
[quote
So now we're saying DON'T backup ascenders? I'm confused.
--------------------
[/ QUOTE ]
That is what I'm saying
because
If you make an ascender that doesn't require a backup, then you don't need to back it up. It backs it's own self up. Make those backups quick-to-instant on and off and compliance in using them is assured.
Below is what I'm working off of currently. It is joy. For the CMI to perform better, you're really gonna have to step up.
(I can't believe I'm actually going to say this....)
<font color="red"> CMI, I challenge you to a dual.... </font>
Question to those that have used or seen these. Do these require a back up, or are they like Tree Machine's, where it has 2 or 3 redundant safety features, which eliminate the need for a back up.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just two beyond the cams themselves.
[quote
So now we're saying DON'T backup ascenders? I'm confused.
--------------------
[/ QUOTE ]
That is what I'm saying
because
If you make an ascender that doesn't require a backup, then you don't need to back it up. It backs it's own self up. Make those backups quick-to-instant on and off and compliance in using them is assured.
Below is what I'm working off of currently. It is joy. For the CMI to perform better, you're really gonna have to step up.
(I can't believe I'm actually going to say this....)
<font color="red"> CMI, I challenge you to a dual.... </font>
Attachments
[ QUOTE ]
CMI, I challenge you to a dual....
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL.
By the way, I just received a friendly email from the R & D folks at CMI. It appears Tree Machine's essay last fall in TCI was a direct inspiration for the new EXPTWIN.
This might be your crowning acheivement, Tree Machine.
CMI, I challenge you to a dual....
[/ QUOTE ]
LOL.
By the way, I just received a friendly email from the R & D folks at CMI. It appears Tree Machine's essay last fall in TCI was a direct inspiration for the new EXPTWIN.
This might be your crowning acheivement, Tree Machine.
- Location
- Haddonfield, nj
If that's true, where are his accolades and acknowledgements?
These ascenders have multiple redundancies. It requires the release of a pin (which has a button on it that has to be pressed to release) and pushing in on two levers to open the cams fully. There is a piece of cable with a key ring on it that can be pulled with a single finger to open the cams for up and down adjustment, or can be locked to the side to prevent accidental opening. Even when using the ring, if the safties have not been removed, the cams cannot be opened fully. I was very, very impressed during the short time I played with this piece of kit. If you get the chance to play with one, I highly recommend it, you will likely buy it shortly-thereafter.
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
Thanks Flash. I have already talked with Luke over at Tree Stuff and have a pair reserved whenever he gets them in. Looking forward to trying them out after seeing Tree Machine's thread about single handle, dual cam ascenders.
- Location
- Central Hardwood Belt, USA
[/ QUOTE ]This might be your crowning acheivement, Tree Machine.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahhh, I thank you, TreeStuff, in the spirit in which it is intended.
However, I must politely decline much of the credit. The first to propose publicly the paired singles to create a dual would be TreeBuzz's Mark Adams. In particular, he paired a left and a right Petzl ascension. Mark is appointed Twin Ascender Godfather.
The climber from Belgium, Quercus, really inspired me with his demonstrating the inclusiveness of detail, the Prussik routes though the upper hole of the ascenders so is both a Prussik and a 'captive pin'.
Then I met Blinky at TCIA and he was packin a pair of duals, independent of me, so the single handled dual has been around.
Kong even has a single handled dual ascender. They don't know it, but they do.
Then, with the permanently paired Petzls, the goal became,
"How do you totally take the cordage (backup hitch) out of the equation? "
That would be acheived by backing up the cams, then backup the backup-
Dual redundancy. Then by making each side independently operable,
OR both sides controllable simultaneously, you've got yourself a set of dual ascenders.
[/ QUOTE ]The CMI's are in good company. Let's see what the Expedition noobie can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am blessed with fertile testing grounds.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahhh, I thank you, TreeStuff, in the spirit in which it is intended.
However, I must politely decline much of the credit. The first to propose publicly the paired singles to create a dual would be TreeBuzz's Mark Adams. In particular, he paired a left and a right Petzl ascension. Mark is appointed Twin Ascender Godfather.
The climber from Belgium, Quercus, really inspired me with his demonstrating the inclusiveness of detail, the Prussik routes though the upper hole of the ascenders so is both a Prussik and a 'captive pin'.
Then I met Blinky at TCIA and he was packin a pair of duals, independent of me, so the single handled dual has been around.
Kong even has a single handled dual ascender. They don't know it, but they do.
Then, with the permanently paired Petzls, the goal became,
"How do you totally take the cordage (backup hitch) out of the equation? "
That would be acheived by backing up the cams, then backup the backup-
Dual redundancy. Then by making each side independently operable,
OR both sides controllable simultaneously, you've got yourself a set of dual ascenders.
[/ QUOTE ]The CMI's are in good company. Let's see what the Expedition noobie can do.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am blessed with fertile testing grounds.
Attachments
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
OK I just reserved one, with Luke. Not really in the budget but we need another DdRT ascending package anyway.
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
I just got mine in today from Luke and I'm highly impressed by these. It's obvious a lot of thought went into building these and these are actually(in my mind) the first ascender for the arborist market that will require no back ups. The safety features on this thing are phenomenal. There is the ball lock pin that keeps the cams from opening fully, two levers that you depress to just open the cams to install the rope, and one of those levers you have to depress just to remove the ball lock pin. Like Tree Machine stated earlier about backups, having them obvious and built in so the climber has to install them is the easiest way to back up an ascender and I think CMI has done this wonderfully.
Big shout out to Tree Machine also. It's obvious that his TCIA article had a ton of influence on the safety features of this ascender. Thanks TM for developing these awesome features!
BTW, I will try to get some pics and a video up in the near future show-casing this ascender and its many safety features.
Big shout out to Tree Machine also. It's obvious that his TCIA article had a ton of influence on the safety features of this ascender. Thanks TM for developing these awesome features!
BTW, I will try to get some pics and a video up in the near future show-casing this ascender and its many safety features.
- Location
- Haddonfield, nj
I'll get excited and gitty after I use them.
They look pretty and shiney but let's see how well they hold up
They look pretty and shiney but let's see how well they hold up
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
Here is a quick video I shot show casing these ascenders. Shows the various safety features of the new CMI ascenders and a few other things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFElGoAI4PI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFElGoAI4PI
cerviarborist
Very stable member
- Location
- Florida, USA
Nice video rangerdanger. Thanks for posting!
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Yep, Luke can thank him, I just ordered one after watching it.
- Location
- Lexington, Kentucky
Thanks guys, here is one more showing them in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npcRhdByOO0
Back to the back up question real quick also. So, I've been talking with some other guys and the issue of backups with these have come up. Like I stated in the video, there is no possible way for the rope to pop out of the cam, due to the two redundancies that prevent this(the lever backing up the cam, the pin backing up the lever). But the topic of debris becoming jammed in the cam somehow has popped up. Wondering if Tree Machine has found a fix for this on his Petzl's(most similar to the new CMI's), since I know the plate on top of the Kong ascenders prevents(supposedly) debris from becoming jammed in the cams.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npcRhdByOO0
Back to the back up question real quick also. So, I've been talking with some other guys and the issue of backups with these have come up. Like I stated in the video, there is no possible way for the rope to pop out of the cam, due to the two redundancies that prevent this(the lever backing up the cam, the pin backing up the lever). But the topic of debris becoming jammed in the cam somehow has popped up. Wondering if Tree Machine has found a fix for this on his Petzl's(most similar to the new CMI's), since I know the plate on top of the Kong ascenders prevents(supposedly) debris from becoming jammed in the cams.
