- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Does anyone know of a carabiner that will fit through the top holes of the Kong double-handled ascenders?
Thanks.
Mahk
Thanks.
Mahk
carabiner for Kong ascenders
- Thread starter Mahk_Adams
- Start date
- Location
- Overland Park, Kansas
good question; Dan Mekkes and i were looking at that about a month ago. None that i am aware of. Doesnt' mean it doesn't exist though.
Not that I've seen, without slight modification to the ascender. Can only get two out of three, but the rope is kept in both sides quite nicely nonetheless.
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
Hé Mahk,
I've just bought the new Kong double ascender (take a look at the attachment). In this one there is a new hole added.
I really don't see a problem if you modify the old ones by drilling a hole about 1/4 inch to the left and up from where the rivet is in the previous model, just to fit a little clip.
Wolter
I've just bought the new Kong double ascender (take a look at the attachment). In this one there is a new hole added.
I really don't see a problem if you modify the old ones by drilling a hole about 1/4 inch to the left and up from where the rivet is in the previous model, just to fit a little clip.
Wolter
Attachments
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Thanks for the replies.
I'm not concerned with trying to keep the ropes in line. They seem to track well by themselves.
The reason I posed the question (and I should have put this in the Awakenings forum) is that in the last five weeks two climbers in Atlanta fell while using Kong double-handled ascenders. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Both climbers worked for the same company and neither was critically injured.
In one case the climber tried to jam the ascenders right up against the limb that his climbing line was on. This caused the rope to pop out of one of the ascenders and the climber fell to the ground.
The second case is a little more puzzling. When the rest of the crew reached the fallen climber both cams were still on the rope in normal working condition. They do know that this climber was pushing his way through some branches and it has been theorized that he could have inadvertently hit one of the cams and then unknowingly held it open until he hit the ground. He could also have got something jammed between the cam and the rope(although there was nothing there when the cams were examined after the fall) or a branch could have opened the cam and the climber unknowingly kept the cam open by grabbing the ascenders to try and stop the fall.
I've been looking for a carabiner that would fit through the top holes of the newer model to use as part of a back up for footlocking a doubled rope. There are other ways to do this, but I've become curious about finding a 'biner for this purpose. If you can't fit any 'biner in the holes then what are they for?
We do use a key chain 'biner as in Wolter's attachment to limit the opening of the cams.
Mahk
I'm not concerned with trying to keep the ropes in line. They seem to track well by themselves.
The reason I posed the question (and I should have put this in the Awakenings forum) is that in the last five weeks two climbers in Atlanta fell while using Kong double-handled ascenders. /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Both climbers worked for the same company and neither was critically injured.
In one case the climber tried to jam the ascenders right up against the limb that his climbing line was on. This caused the rope to pop out of one of the ascenders and the climber fell to the ground.
The second case is a little more puzzling. When the rest of the crew reached the fallen climber both cams were still on the rope in normal working condition. They do know that this climber was pushing his way through some branches and it has been theorized that he could have inadvertently hit one of the cams and then unknowingly held it open until he hit the ground. He could also have got something jammed between the cam and the rope(although there was nothing there when the cams were examined after the fall) or a branch could have opened the cam and the climber unknowingly kept the cam open by grabbing the ascenders to try and stop the fall.
I've been looking for a carabiner that would fit through the top holes of the newer model to use as part of a back up for footlocking a doubled rope. There are other ways to do this, but I've become curious about finding a 'biner for this purpose. If you can't fit any 'biner in the holes then what are they for?
We do use a key chain 'biner as in Wolter's attachment to limit the opening of the cams.
Mahk
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
The hole in the top is still there from the time those ascenders where used without handles.
Ascending/backup in rockclimbing was/can be done by putting the ascender on the rope and than a biner in the top hole AROUND the rope.
Pulling the ascender along the rope it runs free (look at the shape of the hole). Falling into the ascender means tightning the biner onto the rope due to the shape of the top hole.
Wolter
Ascending/backup in rockclimbing was/can be done by putting the ascender on the rope and than a biner in the top hole AROUND the rope.
Pulling the ascender along the rope it runs free (look at the shape of the hole). Falling into the ascender means tightning the biner onto the rope due to the shape of the top hole.
Wolter
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Mahk,
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, what about using some kind of push button pin like from Gibb's ascenders to go through the top holes. It might need a washer on the other side to catch the spring ball. Those pins are a standard industrial supply. I had a link to a company that sold an amazing variety of configurations.
A fellow who worked for me pushed up ascenders and then thumbed the cam open. He fell about 12' and 'only' crcaked a bone in his heel. He was out of work for eight weeks though. Lucky!
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, what about using some kind of push button pin like from Gibb's ascenders to go through the top holes. It might need a washer on the other side to catch the spring ball. Those pins are a standard industrial supply. I had a link to a company that sold an amazing variety of configurations.
A fellow who worked for me pushed up ascenders and then thumbed the cam open. He fell about 12' and 'only' crcaked a bone in his heel. He was out of work for eight weeks though. Lucky!
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Wolter;
[ QUOTE ]
The hole in the top is still there from the time those ascenders where used without handles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, don't understand. How couldthey be used without handles? Do you mean before two ascenders were assembled together to form one unit?
[ QUOTE ]
Ascending/backup in rockclimbing was/can be done by putting the ascender on the rope and than a biner in the top hole AROUND the rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you show a photo? I can't find any carabiner that will fit through either of the top holes in the unit that you show. I can, however, see how a carabiner would fit through either 'side' if there were originally two separate ascenders.
Tom;
Would the pin serve to back up the cams?
[ QUOTE ]
The hole in the top is still there from the time those ascenders where used without handles.
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, don't understand. How couldthey be used without handles? Do you mean before two ascenders were assembled together to form one unit?
[ QUOTE ]
Ascending/backup in rockclimbing was/can be done by putting the ascender on the rope and than a biner in the top hole AROUND the rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Can you show a photo? I can't find any carabiner that will fit through either of the top holes in the unit that you show. I can, however, see how a carabiner would fit through either 'side' if there were originally two separate ascenders.
Tom;
Would the pin serve to back up the cams?
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
First, the gear we use, is safe to use for the purpose it is designed for.
The pic shows a config as a backup system while using a preset line. The line is not to be used as a means of access, but as a backupline while doing your walk/climb.
The purpose for the ascender with the handle is to use in a free upward way in a cave or on a rock, not in a tree with twigs and branches.
Recreational rock climbing can be done with quickdraws/biners without safety features on them like screw lock/tripple locking biners. That doesn't mean we should use them in our industry.
If we start to use stuff from other diciplines, we have to evaluate if those things are made for the purpose we want to give them.
In this case (the unmodified handled ascender) the arborists are dropping to the groud like leaves at the end of the season. Those things are not desighned for us arbo's in the twiggy treetops and even less if we climb thru the tree standing on branches (tilting the thing upside down).
Kong has modified it's ascenders for the use in this industry after numerous accidents.
Use that modified one or (I did not state the next line ;-)) modify your old one to the standard as they should be.
The pic shows a config as a backup system while using a preset line. The line is not to be used as a means of access, but as a backupline while doing your walk/climb.
The purpose for the ascender with the handle is to use in a free upward way in a cave or on a rock, not in a tree with twigs and branches.
Recreational rock climbing can be done with quickdraws/biners without safety features on them like screw lock/tripple locking biners. That doesn't mean we should use them in our industry.
If we start to use stuff from other diciplines, we have to evaluate if those things are made for the purpose we want to give them.
In this case (the unmodified handled ascender) the arborists are dropping to the groud like leaves at the end of the season. Those things are not desighned for us arbo's in the twiggy treetops and even less if we climb thru the tree standing on branches (tilting the thing upside down).
Kong has modified it's ascenders for the use in this industry after numerous accidents.
Use that modified one or (I did not state the next line ;-)) modify your old one to the standard as they should be.
Attachments
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Mahk,
The pin wouldn't back up the cams, it would keep the rope in the trough much like the biner in the picture of the single ascender that Wolter posted.
The pin wouldn't back up the cams, it would keep the rope in the trough much like the biner in the picture of the single ascender that Wolter posted.
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Thanks for the replies.
I'm not concerned with trying to keep the ropes in line. They seem to track well by themselves.
I have the newer model of the Kongs and I've used a little 'biner in the bottom hole (as in Wolter's first pic) ever since I got them. This may help prevent the rope from popping completely out of the ascender, but the pressure on the cam can still be released. The pressure has to be released in order to advance the ascenders up the rope, but, if this occurs accidentally and/or without the climber realizing it, the climber can fall.
I've been looking for a carabiner that would fit through the top holes of the newer model to use as part of a back up for footlocking a doubled rope.
I'm not concerned with trying to keep the ropes in line. They seem to track well by themselves.
I have the newer model of the Kongs and I've used a little 'biner in the bottom hole (as in Wolter's first pic) ever since I got them. This may help prevent the rope from popping completely out of the ascender, but the pressure on the cam can still be released. The pressure has to be released in order to advance the ascenders up the rope, but, if this occurs accidentally and/or without the climber realizing it, the climber can fall.
I've been looking for a carabiner that would fit through the top holes of the newer model to use as part of a back up for footlocking a doubled rope.
Treespotter
New member
- Location
- Houten, The Netherlands
[ QUOTE ]
I've been looking for a carabiner that would fit through the top holes of the newer model to use as part of a back up for footlocking a doubled rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Watch out for that one Mahk, that's the one thing you don't want to do with the ascenders.
Mark B and Jelte did workshops in Holland and Danmark during the tree climbing competitions on that one (the falling into the rope with ascenders).
Maybe Mark or Jelte can respond on this subject to explain why the use in this way is a big No No.
/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
give you one tip, think of the weight of a climber, the distance of the drop, the nice sharp teeth on the cams in the ascender and the poor succer of rope you use for the footlock.
/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Wolter
I've been looking for a carabiner that would fit through the top holes of the newer model to use as part of a back up for footlocking a doubled rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Watch out for that one Mahk, that's the one thing you don't want to do with the ascenders.
Mark B and Jelte did workshops in Holland and Danmark during the tree climbing competitions on that one (the falling into the rope with ascenders).
Maybe Mark or Jelte can respond on this subject to explain why the use in this way is a big No No.
/forum/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
give you one tip, think of the weight of a climber, the distance of the drop, the nice sharp teeth on the cams in the ascender and the poor succer of rope you use for the footlock.
/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Wolter
- Location
- Bucks Co. P.A.
Plain and simple you need a pin through there. Tom has the better idea with washer to catch the "ball". The small biner to limit opening of the cams is not that great. It still opens enough to catch some of the jacket as opposed to all of it. Therefore tearing the jacket as you continue to drop. Maybe it will jam enough maybe not. Let me know when it happens. The jacket on most ropes I beleive tear in the 1k range, that's with full contact on the jacket. Hopefully it will catch and close on the whole rope.
Also, using the top holes on the ascender as your point for back-up is not ideal either. These ascenders are not for fall protection. They don't even comply with KN requirements. They have obviously held our weight and such but let's remember what the design is intended for and make adjustments. Ascenders are not fall protection. Config. your back-up accordingly. Alot of guys/gals use the frame as some point of catch if failure were to happen. Think about it....
I never DBL line. I'm fully commited to SRT. It just works out much better for me. I was never happy with Kong gear anyway.
Later
Also, using the top holes on the ascender as your point for back-up is not ideal either. These ascenders are not for fall protection. They don't even comply with KN requirements. They have obviously held our weight and such but let's remember what the design is intended for and make adjustments. Ascenders are not fall protection. Config. your back-up accordingly. Alot of guys/gals use the frame as some point of catch if failure were to happen. Think about it....
I never DBL line. I'm fully commited to SRT. It just works out much better for me. I was never happy with Kong gear anyway.
Later
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
I don't think you guys understand...
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Mahk,
Can you post a sketch or maybe take the setup that you have and use Paint to add in the pieces that you're looking for?
Can you post a sketch or maybe take the setup that you have and use Paint to add in the pieces that you're looking for?
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Tom;
Basically I would like to find a carabiner that would fit the Kong ascenders where Kevin has used the brass snap in this setup:
SRT setup
The 'biner would replace the snap. I agree with you and Dave that the brass snap is not sufficient.
You mention using a screwlink. Do you know of any that fit without being side-loaded?
Maybe a delta link?
I've even thought of just threading some HRC cord in there.
Basically I would like to find a carabiner that would fit the Kong ascenders where Kevin has used the brass snap in this setup:
SRT setup
The 'biner would replace the snap. I agree with you and Dave that the brass snap is not sufficient.
You mention using a screwlink. Do you know of any that fit without being side-loaded?
Maybe a delta link?
I've even thought of just threading some HRC cord in there.
- Location
- Hole,Norge
Mark have you tried a DMM Boa
Didj
Didj
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Mahk,
No, I don't know of a specific screw link for that application. There are the assymetrical scewlinks too. During this discussion I thought about suggesting just tying the cord to the ascenders. If the edges are radiused this should be fine. Maybe slipping a piece of tubular webbing in for a wear-marker before the DFH is snugged down.
If I used a screwlink in that place I'd make up some kind of corner grab or tape to keep the SL from moving around.
No, I don't know of a specific screw link for that application. There are the assymetrical scewlinks too. During this discussion I thought about suggesting just tying the cord to the ascenders. If the edges are radiused this should be fine. Maybe slipping a piece of tubular webbing in for a wear-marker before the DFH is snugged down.
If I used a screwlink in that place I'd make up some kind of corner grab or tape to keep the SL from moving around.
why not tie one ond of the hitch cord to the ascender and clip the other on through the other 1 eye only?
or am i missing the point
or am i missing the point
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