Canopy anchors v Climbing skills

[moss]

...It seems that the "lanyard" tips are similar to rock climbing- no body ever gave me those tips, but they would have been nice. It took a while to naturally learn what was wasting my energy and how I could more efficiently sustain weight

Yep, the brain and body gravitates to the efficient, remember how awkward your motion was the first time you ascended a rope? The rock climbing tip that's helped my rope ascent motion is the "resting position" hanging off your arms extended when you need to catch a breath. During an ascent I try not to sit back on my harness, when I'm lifting my legs for the next push I'm hanging on my arms and giving them a mini rock climber's rest. It's pretty much the same as secured footlock body motion except the feet are engaged more securely/efficiently on the rope.
-AJ

 

[DSMc]

There's no difference in how I ascend, descend, tend slack, or move in the tree DdRT or SRT.....-AJ

Really?

 

[TimBr]

Yep, the brain and body gravitates to the efficient, remember how awkward your motion was the first time you ascended a rope? The rock climbing tip that's helped my rope ascent motion is the "resting position" hanging off your arms extended when you need to catch a breath. During an ascent I try not to sit back on my harness, when I'm lifting my legs for the next push I'm hanging on my arms and giving them a mini rock climber's rest. It's pretty much the same as secured footlock body motion except the feet are engaged more securely/efficiently on the rope.
-AJ

Wow, moss, thanks for that tip. I'd never heard of this version of the rock climber's rest position. I thought I might have read something similar recently, maybe from you, with regard to a climber's rest position, only involving a foot lock on the rope. Now I'll have to look for that one, too.

The idea of trying to keep your weight out of the harness by hanging on the rope just never occurred to me. I'm assuming that it helps your rope ascent motion because it prevents you from getting way out of line with the rope, as you would when you sit back into the saddle? I would think hanging from the rope by your arms would also encourage you to just get on with the ascent, as opposed to taking a longer break than might really be necessary?

Thanks for this post, and any additional answers you choose to provide.

Tim

 

[sherwood7]

Yep, the brain and body gravitates to the efficient, remember how awkward your motion was the first time you ascended a rope? The rock climbing tip that's helped my rope ascent motion is the "resting position" hanging off your arms extended when you need to catch a breath. During an ascent I try not to sit back on my harness, when I'm lifting my legs for the next push I'm hanging on my arms and giving them a mini rock climber's rest. It's pretty much the same as secured footlock body motion except the feet are engaged more securely/efficiently on the rope.
-AJ

For sure. keeping ur arms straight allows you to rest by hanging from ur joints instead of engaging the muscles in the arm when it is flexed. I think learning how to rope advance first teaches you a lot about how to move through a tree. It lets you check out the structure of the tree on the way up and get used to where and what to tie into. I have seen many new people who start with srt early and throwball into shitty tips because they don't have the experience to pick tips. Also lets face it srt sucks for many small to medium size trees(like a 35ft thick ass sibo). Which is where most people start learning how to climb. I say learn the old school basics and then progress towards which ever system works with your style. If somebody has skills I could care less which system they use.

 

[MikePowers321]

For sure. keeping ur arms straight allows you to rest by hanging from ur joints instead of engaging the muscles in the arm when it is flexed. I think learning how to rope advance first teaches you a lot about how to move through a tree. It lets you check out the structure of the tree on the way up and get used to where and what to tie into. I have seen many new people who start with srt early and throwball into shitty tips because they don't have the experience to pick tips. Also lets face it srt sucks for many small to medium size trees(like a 35ft thick ass sibo). Which is where most people start learning how to climb. I say learn the old school basics and then progress towards which ever system works with your style. If somebody has skills I could care less which system they use.

Well said Court. Tree inspections are easy to overlook with fast and easy Srt ascents.

 

[DSMc]

...Also lets face it srt sucks for many small to medium size trees(like a 35ft thick ass sibo)....

Broken record here, but really? I use SRWP in small trees all the time. It is way easier than DdRT. You can just climb the tree, developing core strength, as Reg suggests and not worry about rope friction.

Also, I was just discussing with someone else that it is a mistake to judge a systems effectiveness or safety by someone who is misusing it.

 

[monkeylove]

My left arm and elbow are partially metal, there is no hanging for me anymore unless it is by muscle. Oh well at least I have a real reason to sit in my harness more, lol.

 

[SoftBankHawks]

For sure. keeping ur arms straight allows you to rest by hanging from ur joints instead of engaging the muscles in the arm when it is flexed. I think learning how to rope advance first teaches you a lot about how to move through a tree. It lets you check out the structure of the tree on the way up and get used to where and what to tie into. I have seen many new people who start with srt early and throwball into shitty tips because they don't have the experience to pick tips. Also lets face it srt sucks for many small to medium size trees(like a 35ft thick ass sibo). Which is where most people start learning how to climb. I say learn the old school basics and then progress towards which ever system works with your style. If somebody has skills I could care less which system they use.

I agree Sherwood, getting up close to the structure is vital for a proper and safe connection. to true about bad throwing skills, I worry that many think Stationary Rope Climbing = Trunk Anchor. There is so much much more than this.
I'm not so sure about hanging off locked joints though, sure it gives your muscles a rest but at what cost? My body work lessons taught me to stand with bent knees, first lesson stuff, must be the same for arms too, the body becomes inert and powerless otherwise, a poor excuse for a rest if you ask me.
I love soft shoes for climbing though tend to wear stiff soles most of the time because of spiking, soft soles allow you to move, with bent knees, on your toes.

 

[SoftBankHawks]

Broken record here, but really? I use SRWP in small trees all the time. It is way easier than DdRT. You can just climb the tree, developing core strength, as Reg suggests and not worry about rope friction.

Also, I was just discussing with someone else that it is a mistake to judge a systems effectiveness or safety by someone who is misusing it.

Hi Dave,
Perhaps judging it by the ability to misuse it, the inherent implications of it. This is of course not the fault of an in-experienced climber and training is the answer though many people never train.
I agree with you about the small tree stuff. I use stationary rope for everything, sometimes I use concepts taken from DdRT but not the rope system itself.

 

[moss]

Really?

Yep. Only difference gear configuration-wise is I'll use a HUT (advancer tether) on SRT. I don't use a HAAS or SAKA (great tools that they are), old-school Pantin on right foot and half hitch footlock on the other foot, DdDRT or SRT, same technique, balanced two leg power when doing off the tree ascent.
-AJ

 

[moss]

Yeah, first ascent into any tree is all about caution and looking the tree over and getting to know what's going on with it. I don't think SRT should take away from that initial ascent/assessment. Hanging SRT anchors over sketchy branches is a climber decision, it's not inherent to SRT, selecting a bad anchor can be done with DdRT quite easily. When you see a climber misusing any climbing technique you don't blame the technique you blame the climber. (what SoftBankHawks and DMSc said)
-AJ

 

[DSMc]

Hi Dave,
Perhaps judging it by the ability to misuse it, the inherent implications of it....

Paul, I honestly think not even then. In what has been discussed, the same sloppy misuses and lack of understanding would not be isolated to any one technique. To condemn something because the user lacked training would leave us very little to work with.

 

[moss]

Wow, moss, thanks for that tip. I'd never heard of this version of the rock climber's rest position. I thought I might have read something similar recently, maybe from you, with regard to a climber's rest position, only involving a foot lock on the rope. Now I'll have to look for that one, too.

The idea of trying to keep your weight out of the harness by hanging on the rope just never occurred to me. I'm assuming that it helps your rope ascent motion because it prevents you from getting way out of line with the rope, as you would when you sit back into the saddle? I would think hanging from the rope by your arms would also encourage you to just get on with the ascent, as opposed to taking a longer break than might really be necessary?

In a rope climbing motion I don't let my arms hang totally straight, leave a little crook at the elbow, easier make the next pull with muscles partially engaged. But yes, I strive to keep as vertical as possible body position as I can during ascent and get a micro-rest hanging on my arms as I move my feet up for the next push up. With a chest roller it can feel like cheating during ascent, it becomes easy to keep your body vertical. Without a chest harness or equivalent it is possible to balance your body vertically on your feet during the ascent motion, less arms, more core and legs. Spring your arms straight up the rope (same as secured footlock motion) or hand over hand. You can find a reasonable pace for your conditioning and maintain the climbing motion without sitting back on your harness. Like swimming you can go almost any distance by finding your most efficient pace for the distance. Disclaimer: It's been documented I weigh next to nothing and it's easier for me to stay vertical during ascent.
-AJ

 

[SoftBankHawks]

To be clear I am not condemning it rather pointing out its drawbacks and making a point of it because most people see the trunk anchor as part and parcel of stationary climbing rigging. Actually Dave for me it has more to do with statically tying off the working end, of cutting out anchor retrieve and choosing in-line anchoring instead. Like I said in my notes the trunk anchor is faultless for simple tasks that require little or no extra rigging (climbing).

 

[DSMc]

Yep....DdDRT or SRT, same technique, balanced two leg power when doing off the tree ascent.-AJ

So do you not ever use the 2 to 1 advantage of the DdRT system? No hip thrusting? The very nature of DdRT encourages engaging arms to facilitate ease of movement. You could be the exception, but I have personally never seen anyone that used DdRT NOT lean back into the saddle to overcome the inherent drag. Also when using the mechanical advantage your arms have a hard time keeping up with your legs. This again encourages arm and body posture changes.

With no mechanical advantage, unless applied, in SRT there is little need to lean back or be in anything but a balanced posture. When going up nobody actually uses their arms to provide the power. The legs will be the primary driving force whether climbing the rope or the tree. Which is as it should be.

 

[SoftBankHawks]

In a rope climbing motion I don't let my arms hang totally straight, leave a little crook at the elbow, easier make the next pull with muscles partially engaged. But yes, I strive to keep as vertical as possible body position as I can during ascent and get a micro-rest hanging on my arms as I move my feet up for the next push up. With a chest roller it can feel like cheating during ascent, it becomes easy to keep your body vertical. Without a chest harness or equivalent it is possible to balance your body vertically on your feet during the ascent motion, less arms, more core and legs. Spring your arms straight up the rope (same as secured footlock motion) or hand over hand. You can find a reasonable pace for your conditioning and maintain the climbing motion without sitting back on your harness. Like swimming you can go almost any distance by finding your most efficient pace for the distance.
-AJ

I love footlocking, (my spell correct always wants to make it spell bootlicking) - stationary rope slack tending movement through a crown can be akin to it, from the knees the climbers COG moves up and down while slack tending, a straight back ensures good balance and keeps body parts in-line.

 

[SoftBankHawks]

So do you not ever use the 2 to 1 advantage of the DdRT system? No hip thrusting? The very nature of DdRT encourages engaging arms to facilitate ease of movement. You could be the exception, but I have personally never seen anyone that used DdRT NOT lean back into the saddle to overcome the inherent drag. Also when using the mechanical advantage your arms have a hard time keeping up with your legs. This again encourages arm and body posture changes.

With no mechanical advantage, unless applied, in SRT there is little need to lean back or be in anything but a balanced posture. When going up nobody actually uses their arms to provide the power. The legs will be the primary driving force whether climbing the rope or the tree. Which is as it should be.

This is my point about the trunk anchor. DdRT has an inherently arm based action. People will tend toward it.

 

[moss]

So do you not ever use the 2 to 1 advantage of the DdRT system? No hip thrusting? The very nature of DdRT encourages engaging arms to facilitate ease of movement. You could be the exception, but have personally never seen anyone that used DdRT NOT lean back into the saddle to overcome the inherent drag. Also when using the mechanical advantage your arms have a hard time keeping up with your legs. This again encourages arm and body posture changes.

With no mechanical advantage, unless applied, in SRT there is little need to lean back or be in anything but a balanced posture. When going up nobody actually uses their arms to provide the power. The legs will be the primary driving force whether climbing the rope or the tree. Which is as it should be.

If I'm climbing the trunk DdRT I put one foot on the trunk and the other on the tail with foot ascender. I only use body thrust for short moves in the tree, that can be DdRT or SRT. Open air climbing DdRT I use the same foot techniques I use SRT. My body position majority of my rope climbing is exactly the same DdRT or SRT. I pull rope with my arms above the hitch or device. My ascent motion for either technique looks much more like secured footlock except my hips, knees and feet are aligned ergonomically.

I've been advocating for this approach one-on-one with other climbers for a long time, thanks for asking the questions so I can describe it in detail!
-AJ

 

[moss]

This is my point about the trunk anchor. DdRT has an inherently arm based action. People will tend toward it.

I think that's "cultural" in the tree climbing world. I've always thought it was a bit of torture to make new climbers do a lot of body/hip thrust technique to start. Most guys love it because it capitalizes on upper body strength. It has to fall away for SRT because you can't climb 50-90 all on your upper body. Well... you can but not smart for efficient tree work. I did all body thrust/Blakes my first year of climbing, toasted both inside elbow tendons, they're fine now. I had to adapt to find more sustainable DdRT ascent technique, when I started climbing SRT on handled ascenders it felt very similar to the body positions I'd been using DdRT. Once I moved over to using hitches SRT it became exactly the same.
-AJ

 

[DSMc]

This is my point about the trunk anchor. DdRT has an inherently arm based action. People will tend toward it.

Sorry, I'm a little lost on how the trunk anchor applies in this, but to be clear, I see arm based movement as unnatural and a contributor to overuse injures in tree work.