Can ISA revoke a cert.?

highclimber30

highclimber30

Location
south carolina
I work for a company that is no stranger to hack jobbery. I'm not a particularly new employee and I usually let my feelings and words about this stupidity flow freely. I'm not afraid of getting fired and I'm not afraid of saying that I won't do it. Will ISA revoke someone's cert for pruning/hacking against their standards? I hope that they do, as this would give my refusals some added weight. This would also be something I could let clients know when I refuse to do certain things to their trees.
 
When asked for outrageous bids on topping, etc. I usually start off by explaining what being an arborist entails, the science behind it, and the code of ethics that we strive to promote and follow. This is typically very enlightening to the average homeowner. As far as I know, yes, certs can be revoked due to complaints, etc.
 
Tom, maybe everyone's burnt out from all the previous threads like this.

The first place to look is the A300 standards. As ISA members we are Required to comply with the Shalls, but not the Shoulds. A lot of folks have this confused--read the standards before judging your boss, or putting your foot in your mouth.

I got contacted by isa cert folks about a blurb that described my work history. It said I was arborist for a certain institution at a certain time, and a complainant said he had been THE arborist there during that time, so i must be a liar and unworthy of cert.

I clarified that I was an arborist in a certain branch, not THE arborist of the overall unnamed place. Never heard back. Earlier someone beyotched that i must be lyin cuz i said i'd been caring for trees for 45 years. that's one downside of not looking my age. I did the math for them. Silence.

I was a terrible employee because I often saw a better way imo. bottom line i guess is set an example, and if you see a better way be sure to have some backup like standards or references. then if you still can't change things or stand it strike out on your own--NOT an easy path.
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As a Certified Arborist you are looked upon as the professional and can be held liable for creating a hazard. So the tree was topped big deal, 15 years down the road one of the weakly attached branches fails and kills someone. The lawyers will track down who did the work, and proceed to rip you apart. This is not a risk that I am willing to take for 15 bucks an hour, or any amount for that matter.
 
Sometimes, all one can do is make a good cut. That can be your commitment to arboriculture. Realistically, you're at the mercy of the sales rep. weather they're f.o.s. and making a sale or not. Nobody should hurt you for following industry standards. Protect yourself through viable information.

Joe
 
Ok, first of all, sorry this got double posted, my computer did something wierd the first time and I thought it didn't take, whoops. Anyway, don't know of any other company in this area that does it right ALL the time. There is one that I worked for for 7 years and they did things that were highly suspect from time to time. Like removing giant lower leads, etc., etc.

Secondly, I went back and forth with this client for like 30 minutes on a couple of different occaisons about three different trees that he wanted to "bob-off" major leads. I wanted to know if ISA would really revoke a cert. because if they do it is a great scape goat for me with idiot clients and idiot bosses. Meaning, if they won't listen to reason then I can just say, "its not the right thing to do for this tree, it is an obsolete practice and I am held to a higher standard because I am a certified arborist and I won't do it, sorry." End of story.

As far as educating my employer, I educate as much as I can but there comes a point when they roll their eyes and they just want some one to hack the tree to death so they can get paid. Yes, I should find someone else to work for, that someone else doesn't exist in this town yet. They think they do (my former employer), they are even TCIA accredited and all, but they still will compromise quality for quantity of work. Hopefully, this area will have a tree service of this caliber soon, with yours trully at the helm. We have thousands and thousands of gorgeous mature trees in Greenville and some one needs to see them for more than a money making commodity.

Sorry this was so long.
 
Just to make it even longer...thanks for all the quality responses. Guy, I've got a huge amount of repsect for the type of arboriculture your posts and articles convey. It comes across most times that you want to try and find a viable reason to remove as little green as possible from the urban enviornment. This is a stance that I would like to take as well. I too make a crappy employee in certain situations because I think most prunes could be done in a more conservative fashion and still achieve the same results. This, I think, is one form that conservation can take to us arborists. Anyway, I could ramble on and on. Thanks again.
 
last year maybe 2 we all had to sign and send in our "Arborist's Ethics sheet"

which basically said I agree to uphold the anzi standards and the high quality service that we arborists are paid for or i may lose my certification

Am i correct does anyone else remember that
 
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last year maybe 2 we all had to sign and send in our "Arborist's Ethics sheet"

which basically said I agree to uphold the anzi standards and the high quality service that we arborists are paid for or i may lose my certification

Am i correct does anyone else remember that

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"Basically", if we can't read and think for ourselves, all this forumchat is just passing gas, and unsupported complaints on the job just make you a a pita. Looking to people on the internet (though we are all brilliant people no doubt) to do your thinking for you does not seem like a reliable form of guidance.

Unatool put this in the 3rd post on this thread. http://www.isa-arbor.com/certification/resources/cert_Ethics_CACodeofEthics.pdf

if you want to talk about it, read it first! Same goes with ANSI A300 and the ISAA BMPs.

Sorry i woke up grouchy today bet there it is.
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"Looking to people on the internet (though we are all brilliant people no doubt) to do your thinking for you does not seem like a reliable form of guidance."

Possibly not always reliable but useful. I think most of us aren't going to take just anyones' flatulence for fact. Although, as previously stated, I have great respect for Det. Dendro, I'm not looking to become anyone's sycophant or proselyte.

"unsupported complaints on the job just make you a a pita"

And I pray to God that I will continue to be a pita to those people who deserve it. Besides, how will the unsupported find support for arguments to protect our resources without asking those who know better? There is a lot of experience mingled in amongst the windbaggery of this site. That's what I'm looking for. As I said twice now, you've got plenty of that (experience), share that with us.
 
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... how will the unsupported find support for arguments to protect our resources without asking those who know better? ...As I said twice now, you've got plenty of that (experience), share that with us.

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There are limits--at some point YOU HAVE TO READ AND THINK FOR YOURSELF! I think that's 4 times now. Tell ya what--if you have issues with a task, take pics and post em here and poll the audience. Tell us what "shall" or how many "shoulds" in ANSI, or sections in the ISA BMP, that you think are being violated, and see who agrees or not and why.

Is that reasonable? We have nothing to go on so far but general catrerwauling; give us something to work with, and show us you know what you are talking about. This ain't grouchiness, just waiting for you to make a point. We can already can figure out who you work for, if we cared, so don't worry about that.

Nice find Ed; guess i've had 2 complaints on advertising, since the complainants were not revealed. So hc you can see that yes indeed you can be rung up on ethics charges, but the complainer would have to be identified. (seems like a reasonable policy imo btw)
 
Guy, I've written and deleted about 5 posts now, most of which were more irate. I'm sorry somebody shafted you in the past. It wasn't me.

I'm pretty sure, if the same client had asked you to do what he was asking me to do to this beautiful mature pecan, that you wouldn't have wanted to do it either. If you would have, well, then I guess I got the wrong impression somewhere along the way.

I never asked how I should have pruned the tree, I just asked if someone really can have their cert. revoked. I do think and read for myself, I was just venting about a day that really sucked and asking a simple yes or no question.

Have a good day, night, get some more sleep, whatever. I feel that your posts, for the most part, were more insulting than informative. Didn't really expect that from you. I'm just not going to sling any more mud around with you or anyone else on here that I respect.
 
well hc sorry about the perceived mud. the thread started with words about your boss being a stupid hack, and as a boss/gc that did push a button. only now 6 days later do we hear that it was a mature pecan that had a big limb taken off, and while that may have been unfortunate, it doesn't tell much more.

Ya want support, here it is, excerpted from June's article with relevant portions highlighted for your convenience. It was not delivered to Moses on Mt. Sinai, but it was reviewed by several peers. highlighting did not transfer so that part is now on you. take it brother may it serve you well!

PRUNING FOR PRESERVATION
“Plan the work, and work the plan” is excellent advice for physically getting around in the tree, and for first mentally planning the work once you get there. “Pruning objectives shall be established before pruning”, ANSI standards remind us. Then, “the arborist shall clearly state what is going to be done to achieve the objective The arborist is most qualified to write the pruning assignment, and specify the methods, as well as the location, density, and size of branches.
These specs are best transferred from supervisor to climber in written form, so nothing is lost in translation. Climbers want to be sure the specs are clear to them before ascending!
Shifting into “tree time” view, the aging process is survival mode, a new and indefinitely long phase in the tree’s development. Research and practice around the world is pointing to a list of criteria for selecting the locations of pruning cuts on older trees. The objective of this article is to examine different methods of pruning, when the objective is longevity.
Shaking branches of shade trees is typically done to free hangers, and it can also be a good way to study biomechanics. Heavy ends dip and pull. The fulcrums of these overextended lever arms are natural targets for pruning cuts.
…Brittle species with sprawling forms, such as Acer saccharinum and Carya illinoinensis, are prone to heavy breakage in storms if they are not lightly reduced, on perhaps a 3-5 year cycle. For any such “leggy” plant, first locate the tallest branch, and select a lower lateral that has room to grow. Cut, repeat with the next tallest branch, then continue until there are no tips sticking out of the crown outline.
Selective reduction cuts generally work best on upward-facing limbs. Upright laterals with an angle of at least 60 degrees, no matter their size, work well as new ends to old branches. Older trees can live indefinitely when declining limbs, even central leaders, are very gradually reduced back to concentrations of vitality.

…Size of wound. is widely agreed to be the key to favorable tree response. Larger cuts expose defenseless older tissue, then cracks extend the infection court toward the heart of the tree. Ironically, removing large limbs to eliminate their risk of failing can, in a disturbingly short period of time, increase the risk of a catastrophic tree failure. The smaller the wound, the less it is forced to sprout, and the sooner it closes.
 
That's the kind of stuff that I've become accustomed to reading from you, and it rocks. Sorry again for striking that nerve. I have great respect for my boss, just not as an arborist or dendrophile of any degree. He's not an arborist anyway. I'm the only arborist there and I'm not the one that gets to decide the scope of work, so, I disagree from time to time with the severity of things. First and foremost (to me), the tree is my client and I am trying to protect it from its (all too often, very temporary) "owners".

"The objective of this article is to examine different methods of pruning, when the objective is longevity."

Their objective was satellite clearance and they wanted to top half of the Carya illinoinensis, I was trying to explain to them what this would mean concerning the longevity of the plant. It was more of a debate between me and the client than my boss. Previously, it seemed, the tree had been lions tailed and there weren't many suitable laterals to work with.

The second tree was a water oak lead that the client wanted stubbed off because he claimed "it is GOING to fall", he was extremely adament in his prophesying. I tried to ask him how he knew it was GOING to fail to no avail. I tried to tell him we could cable the tree (something I felt should have been made clear to him from the beginning of the bid). I tried to tell him it would be counter productive and that there were still more leads that could fail and may be more likely to fail if we removed the one he wanted gone. Besides that, the lower lead, if it did fail would not gain enough momentum (being 6ft. from the roof) to really do the scale of damage he was fearing. Also, I thought the lower limb may help add some buffer to his roof if something higher in the crown were to fail during an extreme weather event.

Not to mention, that a 24" lead had already been removed (by a fellow employee because I disagreed vehemently) from another very mature Quercus nigra in the front yard. This time the client prophesied that the limb was going to fail and "kill someones' child". Who's child and why they would be hanging out in a bed of calf deep ivy during a windstorm, was not specified. All of this in combination led to me say that what was going on was stupid and hackjobery, and I stand by that statement. It was depressing and I was ashamed to be there.
 
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...a 24" lead had already been removed (by a fellow employee because I disagreed vehemently) from another very mature Quercus nigra in the front yard. This time the client prophesied that the limb was going to fail and "kill someones' child". Who's child and why they would be hanging out in a bed of calf deep ivy during a windstorm, was not specified. All of this in combination led to me say that what was going on was stupid and hackjobery, and I stand by that statement. It was depressing and I was ashamed to be there.

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Geez if i had a chainsaw running and someone told me that I HAD to make a 2-foot cut on a fast rotter like a water oak, I'm not sure which way that saw would swing.
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Hang in there, dude. Maybe you can (subtly) school the salesman on strategies for sustainable business.

As for the dish, I always look for ways to move the dam thing vs. topping/hard reduction. but just a few years ago my neighbor who cuts my grass (2 acres) insisted i whack a willow oak for a dish signal. i got impatient and did it.

it still looks like crap. i have appeased the tree gods somewhat by some extra judicious care of his other trees, but it still twists my guts to see that tree. so you are not alone hc; hang in there.
 
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