Cabling a spreading silver maple

None of your links explain the rationale for using Cobra dynamic cabling systems.

Why are you incapable of stating that rationale in clear layman's terms?

Indeed both your links and all the other articles I've read on thigmomorphogenesis clearly show that it is branch movement that triggers the growth of reaction wood in all trees.

Why do you so conveniently overlook the fact that synthetic cabling systems are far more vulnerable to natural elements like abrasion, fire and UV degradation compared to steel?

Is it your position that none of my listed natural elements are valid considerations for choosing steel cabling over synthetic cabling?

Please explain why?

If allowing movement is your paramount consideration? Then why not utilize inline compression springs with a limited throw with an all steel system that has none of my listed vulnerabilities when compared to synthetics?

jomoco
 
Or perhaps it is your contention that squirrels and rats are not known to chew through synthetic materials?

If so, please explain?

jomoco
 
Well, since name calling seems to be the extent of Mister's debating skills. It appears that I'll have to be my own devil's advocate and bring up the primary selling point of these synthetic cabling systems, their non-invasive attachment point terminations.

Sounds good from sitting behind a desk with no practical field experience in the tree.

However any experienced hands on climbing arborist like myself knows that there are many species of trees like Alnus rhombifolia and Betula papyrifera that have very thin fragile barks that can be torn off simply by stepping on them.

It doesn't require a lot of brains to realize what would happen if you encircled one of these fragile barked tree species with a synthetic strap and applied anywhere near their rated tensions to them. A nicely girdled leader facing imminent death.

Do the folks at Cobra label their products as inappropriate for use on thin fragile barked tree species?

jomoco
 
I've put the cobra mini in several trees as temporary supports (river birches splattered in snow storm) with every intention of removing them in a year or two. The amount of tension on them will surely girdle the stems.
 
To be truthful with you I never stated I was all for cobra cable, I just took the option given and stated that the dynamic aspect of cobra would be a silly application in trying to brace something rigidly. Cobra isn't meant to be installed taught, and is to be inspected every two to three years to be adjusted so that girdling can be prevented. Am I buying into cobra, not completely. It, like steel has both its pro's and con's. To say that its complete utter bullcrap and is just wasting clients money, is bogus. I have removed limbs with both cobra and steel cable ripped off in storms, both still holding the limbs to the tree and doing the job most important of all and thats preventing further property damage. Hardly snake oil. What the snake oil is, is that if you actually think a cabling support system will ultimately "cure" the problem. So if you really look at it, both systems are garbage and will fail, so it doesn't matter what system you install, which is why you back it up with a disclaimer to cover your . If your putting a 100% guarantee on a steel system to not fail in a wind storm I wish you luck. From a climbing certified arborists perspective, I know that you pick the right tool for the right job, and if cobra cable will do the job of holding the limb if it fails, and/or preventing complete failure/mitigating risk, and I can bring it all up into the tree, do it by myself, and faster than I can install a steel system, then why the f*** would I want to lug a heavy drill and all the steel up into a tree, or have more guys on site that I need doing nothing half the time? Because I want the work out and decreased productivity? If it calls for a steel system, well then it calls for a steel system. Please don't lump all the CA's into one group of being idiots. Im proud of my accomplishment, but I also back it up with being a productive climber and not thinking I know everything about something we all know very little about, I don't hide behind a piece of paper or a desk.
 
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To be truthful with you I never stated I was all for cobra cable, I just took the option given and stated that the dynamic aspect of cobra would be a silly application in trying to brace something rigidly. Cobra isn't meant to be installed taught, and is to be inspected every two to three years to be adjusted so that girdling can be prevented. Am I buying into cobra, not completely. It, like steel has both its pro's and con's. To say that its complete utter bullcrap and is just wasting clients money, is bogus. I have removed limbs with both cobra and steel cable ripped off in storms, both still holding the limbs to the tree and doing the job most important of all and thats preventing further property damage. Hardly snake oil. What the snake oil is, is that if you actually think a cabling support system will ultimately "cure" the problem. So if you really look at it, both systems are garbage and will fail, so it doesn't matter what system you install, which is why you back it up with a disclaimer to cover your . If your putting a 100% guarantee on a steel system to not fail in a wind storm I wish you luck. From a climbing certified arborists perspective, I know that you pick the right tool for the right job, and if cobra cable will do the job of holding the limb if it fails, and/or preventing complete failure/mitigating risk, and I can bring it all up into the tree, do it by myself, and faster than I can install a steel system, then why the f*** would I want to lug a heavy drill and all the steel up into a tree, or have more guys on site that I need doing nothing half the time? Because I want the work out and decreased productivity? If it calls for a steel system, well then it calls for a steel system. Please don't lump all the CA's into one group of being idiots. Im proud of my accomplishment, but I also back it up with being a productive climber and not thinking I know everything about something we all know very little about, I don't hide behind a piece of paper or a desk.

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Amen. very nicely put!

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So do you believe in cabling a tree without a structural fault?

jomoco

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Everyone has a different opinion of what a structural fault is. And its all in how you look at that fault to weather or not you would recomend a support system. What is your definition?
I just put Cobra 8T in a sycamore 105' tall with 29 and 30" codoms at 10 or 12'. No included bark, actually attached very well. Structural fault? I dont think so, piece of mind.
Oh I forgot to mention the owner lost 2 large trees on the prevailing wind side and did not want to loose this one. Structural fault? No, change in environment.
So to answer your question, YES absolutly, with Cobra=piece of mind, steel is for the faults, for me.
Lining my pockets, NO, just good service.
 
Then the sky's the limit for you boys to peddle your snake oil I guess.

Oh my that tree's so big. Oh my branch's so long.

Where does it end boys?

Step right up folks!

Get your peace of mind snake oil here!

Who's the certified arboreal expert in this scenario, you, or your scared client?

jomoco
 
So if a client is concerned, after 2 failures, about overextended limbs, we should be responsible, oil-free experts, and talk them out of arboricultural treatments?

Time to rant on something new. How about chipper design?
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Nice try, Jeff and treeness and fs.

cmon jon, define "fault".
 
What a whack job, one minute you complain about how trees create reaction wood then scream because Cobra is mentioned.

It is pretty clear that in the Thunder Bay example some low cables and a bracing rod or two will do wonders. Perhaps a car might catch fire underneath and a pumper load of firefighters will be killed as the tree collapses on them but I doubt it.
 
Included bark, cavities, structural damage inflicted, fungal infections, wind torquing compromising structural integrity, actual physical faults that can be quantified.

Why don't you guys just string up your ugly black oh so very vulnerable thingamabobs in place of a good class one prune then? So much faster and easier than actually doing what's right for the tree itself, right?

Like rats chewing through polypropylene and compromising its integrity,you guys are eating away at the integrity of our profession to enrich yourselves.

A sad state of affairs, in my opinion.

jomoco
 
So the basic fact that a cabled branch becomes dependent on that cable for life is something you geniuses dispute, right?

jomoco
 
Great, so now I can cut out the supporting branch of a crossover junction with no worries that the remaining branch will fail. Sweet.

jomoco
 
A great example for a steel cable would be an included union, that you can see opening in a slight breeze, and the clients wish to preserve the tree. That is a time when you need rigid bracing throughout the tree, including steel at the top. That union will most likely not get better throughout the life of the tree, so trying to achieve reaction wood and fusion in a small time frame (15-20 years) is ridiculous. Wouldn't even dare touch that with cobra.

But you say in the above post that putting an 8ton cable into a tree, to give the client piece of mind is snake oil, is garbage. You see a minor fray in your bridge, definitely still could support the weight of a climber under his/her weight, leave it in? or swap it out? Most likely swap it out, why? Piece of mind. Deflect your rigging by putting it through another union or block in the opposing stem, the one stem could "probably" hold the weight of the rigging, but why not have that piece of mind you can drop those big pieces with out a peel out? Limiter caps on our saws' carbs, so we don't fry our engines. We all do it. Saving for a rainy day? Double checking your blind spot? All piece of mind, because it sucks when something sh*tty happeneds, so why not put the barriers in place to mitigate those risks?

Are you saying that an 8ton cable cobra is doing absolutely nothing in that tree right now, and offering the client nothing? The union is healthy, and will continue to grow as normal with it still being allowed to take the stress of the environment within its fine limits. If it does hit that point of failure, rather than falling across the yard and damaging god knows what, it just hangs there. It probably won't happen if the union is healthy, but who knows in a storm. It's not our job to be a psychologist to the client, if they want something, that isn't violating any aboricultural practice, then why not supply them with that comfort rather then fight to change their thought process. I can't tell you how many times I have to talk to clients that are so stubborn and thick headed, their tree, their money, so I don't really care as long as they let me cary my job out to standard. Our industry has come a long way from pioneers like you jomoco, but were still dealing with the same idiots 50 plus years ago; for the most par; you get the odd client.
 
What the f*** are you on about. I get the impression that a case of Cobra Cable kicked sand in your face when you were a little troglodyte.

Why would you put steel cable in trees in San Diego if the limbs will be forever dependent upon them? Your lies and rants are so convoluted and misinformed that you do not know what you have said.
 
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Why would you put steel cable in trees in San Diego if the limbs will be forever dependent upon them? Your lies and rants are so convoluted and misinformed that you do not know what you have said.

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To compensate for an actual structural fault in the tree of course.

The bulk of my cabling jobs are to replace old cables that the tree has already become dependent on however. Cables that should have never been put in the tree in the first place.

The historic Morton Bay Fig in front of the San Diego Museum of Natural History being an excellent case in point. It has 40 cables in it that should have never been installed in it. I had to replace every stinkin one of them with with new cables and terminations. Took me a couple of weeks.

It's ironic that a little old lady client of mine in La Cresta has a much better grasp of how trees develop strength/reaction wood than you guys. She would hang bowling balls on springs from the lower laterals of her beautiful large Lemon Euc during the spring and summer months, and take them off during the fall and winter months. She told me it was a weight training program for her prize tree to make those lateral branches stronger!

I could find no fault in her logic. Unlike the contorted logic I'm hearing from you so called "experts".

jomoco
 
Static cables=support in one vector, under tension

Dynamic cables= support only when the tree moves far enough to take advantage of the dampening effect of a dynamic brace. When the tree is moving normally dynamic cables provide no support. Only when it moves beyond what is determined to be 'too far' which could lead to failure.

Dyamic=shock absorbing, floating support
Static= full support, solid axle type arrangement

Dr. Shigo was asked many times, 'Why_____?" I heard him say many times, "Why questions are religious and we're not doing religion today."

Why cables are installed is one thing...what they provide to the tree is something completely separate. Most people can carry on a dynamic discussion on these two parts of the cabling question.
 
So can you make the case that the dynamically cabled branch whose throw is limited will develop the same girth as a natural unlimited branch?

If not then you are in fact weakening that dynamically cabled branch when compared to a natural uncabled branch.

jomoco
 
"It's ironic that a little old lady client of mine in La Cresta has a much better grasp of how trees develop strength/reaction wood than you guys. She would hang bowling balls on springs from the lower laterals of her beautiful large Lemon Euc during the spring and summer months, and take them off during the fall and winter months. She told me it was a weight training program for her prize tree to make those lateral branches stronger!

I could find no fault in her logic. Unlike the contorted logic I'm hearing from you so called "experts"."

"Are you saying that an 8ton cable cobra is doing absolutely nothing in that tree right now, and offering the client nothing? The union is healthy, and will continue to grow as normal with it still being allowed to take the <u>stress</u> of the environment within its fine limits."

"Our industry has come a long way from pioneers like you jomoco, but were still dealing with the same idiots 50 plus years ago; for the most part; you get the odd client."

Cobra cables that are installed wrong can be removed easily, and reset easily, still using the same cable in certain instances, which has no adverse effect to the tree as it is being used in a dynamic loose situation allowing the tree to do its job. Unless installed taught, which brings the question what idiot would install cobra cable statically against the directions? Then yes your looking at girdling, and the concerns you arose.

"I had to replace every stinkin one of them with with new cables and terminations. Took me a couple of weeks."

"I know that you pick the right tool for the right job, and if cobra cable will do the job of holding the limb if it fails, and/or preventing complete failure/mitigating risk, and I can bring it all up into the tree, do it by myself, and faster than I can install a steel system, then why the f*** would I want to lug a heavy drill and all the steel up into a tree, or have more guys on site that I need doing nothing half the time? Because I want the work out and decreased productivity? If it calls for a steel system, well then it calls for a steel system."

Two weeks of cabling must have come with a hefty price tag, that or your a very generous man, as two weeks means a lot of lost jobs, but again if it's been cabled with steel, it needs to be re-cabled with steel as tree has become dependant on it. Notice the logic there, from an expert who you have lumped into the idiot category and snake oil peddler.

The only logic I see is your failure to interpret my earlier posts, and then use an example of a client applying the same logic which I just had, and then calling me a fool. In fact I actually paid you a bit of a compliment, only to get a back handed slap in the face. Classy bud.
 
If the only benefit of a cobra system is its failsafe characteristic, why not use a rated synthetic rope tied loosely enough to let the branch move through its entire range of motion? I suspect it would be considerably cheaper.

jomoco
 
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