Brief account of 2012 Kentucky TCC issues

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Moving forward, the Kentucky Chapter WILL NOT be stepping outside of the rules of the ITCC.




This is truly a shame...I rather enjoyed competing in, helping at, and sponsoring the KY TCC......

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I hope you will reconsider Rich. You are a great asset to the KAA. I understand your frustration, but it seems your letting them win if you completely boycott. Staying involved and working within the system seems the best way to move forward.
 
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... Staying involved and working within the system seems the best way to move forward.

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Not if the system is overwhelmingly stacked against you. Sometimes you just need to get out of the mud in order to clean things up.
 
I had a nicely burning fire in my belly for all things ISA in the early 90's.

Only to have it thoroughly extinguished in the late 90's from frustration in trying to work from within their system. This just trying to get them to incorporate cambium saver use into their rules and regs.

Bureaucracies bend so slowly that they lose almost more than they gain at times.

The ISA is still a fantastic organization at the end of the day though.

jomoco
 
The Kentucky Comp has come a LONG way in the past 8 or so years....

How much of the improvement is due to direct ISA involvement? ZERO

How much financial help has ISA offered to the KY Comp to make it better? NONE

How many volunteers has the ISA provided to the KY Chapter to help institute its policies? NONE

Seems to me that the KY Comp is in MUCH more capable hands without any ISA involvement whatsoever. The same can be said for many other comps....

I have tried to work within the system....I have volunteered countless hours to both the KY Comp and many other Chapter and International Comps.... If the ISA wants to disenfranchise a large group of climbers based upon flawed and unequal logic then there are going to be consequences for those decisions...

I can assure you Jesse....it KILLS me to not be able to do the work that I LOVE to do in helping Chapters provide the safest, most challenging, and truly fun events for their climbers...It Freaking KILLS me !!! But at the same time, I cannot just stand by and accept the BS that I am being fed...

I will truly look forward to the many and growing non-sanctioned events until ISA can see fit to come up with some sort of logical approach to the way they are handling things....

I know it is hard for things to change and for entrenched leaders to see the light sometimes.... I understand that changes take place over time... But for change to occur you need leaders who are willing to listen and understand their constituents... If the climbers who are being disenfranchised voice their concerns maybe we can find some leaders who will listen.....
 
Kevin,

I see what you and Rich are getting at. I can understand the frustration. All I am saying is that life is rarely fair. We move through it to the best of our abilities.

I chose to do what I am best at for my personal betterment and for the betterment of others along the way.

I can't change the past, nor will I attempt to explain. I do know we can dwell in the past and scream foul or we can chose to move forward. We can also hang out inbetween getting nowhere. In the end, for me it comes down to why, the motivation and intention.

I do not pretend to know they way. I am finding my own with every breath. I'll help if I can, if that help aligns with my core values. I refuse to be a victim. I will continue to struggle to be objective in a heated debate.

Tony
 
You are doing the right thing, Rich.

They are not going to come around any other way.
 
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I agree, let's aim a critical eye at it all. But to do so we need something to judge it on. The circumstances, personalities and technology have focused this on the RW. So let us start there.......

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If the RW was held to the same approval process that everything else has seen it would have been approved long ago....Just saying...

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I agree with this.

If the Rope Wrench is not allowed this year in competitions, I may not compete. I have been following this since the beginning and it is quite frustrating.
 
Casey,

What are you saying with your choice of quotes?

It is fair to chose sides. It is a mark of maturity to use experience to do so. At what point do you decide the level of experience is not worth the side you chose?

I pose these points/ questions for your ponder. Please take them in the spirit they are offered.

Tony
 
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...It is fair to chose sides. It is a mark of maturity to use experience to do so. At what point do you decide the level of experience is not worth the side you chose?...Tony

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Tony, I have read that paragraph several times now and still don't understand it. Can you dumb it down a bit for me?

Dave
 
Sorry Dave and all, drinkinin' again
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I was trying to put it nicely, but I think Casey can handle it
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Sure you could forgo the comps and fall into the drama. But you would be losing out on a valuable opportunity. All for what?

I am not suggesting involvement to cause change from within or anything so grandiose, althoght that option is there if you wish to persue it.

Just go to a comp, relax, have fun, play by the rules as they are now, make an effort to change it all if you wish.

Too much to lose by not going because of a soap opera.

Tony
 
What is there to lose when there are events such as Michigander winter glacier event, the Bartlett tree jam, the Charlotte open, the tree climber rendezvous the bainbridge master challenge, and many more awesome fun educational events without any of the drama
 
I don't post much but have been following this. I climb with all systems and use them for different situations. I know people are frustrated with the Isa want to take their toys and go home but you guys are great climbers and can teach the new climbers a lot and make them safer for the best. By the tony you are much better writer then me. See you in few for the crane class. Keith
 
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What is there to lose when there are events such as Michigander winter glacier event, the Bartlett tree jam, the Charlotte open, the tree climber rendezvous the bainbridge master challenge, and many more awesome fun educational events without any of the drama

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I totally could see a Louisville open Competition.

SZ
 
I have never climbed with a RW, but when I see people using it, they have much more control and fluidity than climbing DbRT. More control = safer in my book. I think it's crazy that the RW is not allowed in ISA sanctioned comps., where safety is #1.
 
This is not directed to the many hard working volunteers but at the people that are really in control.

There can be only two reasons for this hard line stance. A complete lack of understanding with no desire to or conflicting interests.

If it is truly a safety concern as stated, prove it. The ISA wants proof of its safety from everyone else involved. I say, show the dramatic increase of accidents associated with this climbing technique. Though it is not currently accepted in competition it is and has been in use for a long time. Increases in accidents directly related to SRWP should be easily traceable.

Dave
 
Seems to me that any new innovations under consideration for use in ITCC events should be subject to a few years of use in the commercial field without any major flaws coming to light in the interim.

By that standard I suppose the WR has already met that mark?

jomoco
 
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Sorry Dave and all, drinkinin' again
grin.gif


I was trying to put it nicely, but I think Casey can handle it
smirk.gif


Sure you could forgo the comps and fall into the drama. But you would be losing out on a valuable opportunity. All for what?

I am not suggesting involvement to cause change from within or anything so grandiose, althoght that option is there if you wish to persue it.

Just go to a comp, relax, have fun, play by the rules as they are now, make an effort to change it all if you wish.

Too much to lose by not going because of a soap opera.

Tony

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No hard feelings

Yea wasn't sure what you were saying there. I see myself way outside of the drama. I am sure there is a lot more going on. I have no voice (or not as big as one) compared to others. The comps should show the newest and greatest techniques and gear. I believe other products were in comps when they were prototypes, later to become available to the rest. I may be wrong on that though.

That being said I will most likely compete. Then again I may not.
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Yes there are non chapter events but that requires travel, which is not a bad thing just need the time.

Plain and simple the Rope Wrench should be allowed. It is more than safe compared to other work positioning systems.
 
Casey,

Cool! It just frustrates me to see young climbers such as you discouraged because of silly drama. Stay motivated and compete at your leasiure. Take from it all you can use and leave the rest behind.

For all the rest,

I offer my <u>final</u> words on this subject. (Really it's taking too much time and energy)

I can only speak for myself, as a head technician and a gear inspector at the chapter and international level for over a decade. These following words are mine and mine alone. (It pains me to have to make such a disclaimer, but such is life. I am not going to cry over it).

In my mind, the ultimate safety of the RW has never really been a question. What is at question for me in the roles stated above, is how exactly should the RW be set? At what point can I objectively say "yes" this set up/configuration is acceptable for the activity.

In a few short years the RW has mutated from a box wrench, to a stick, to metal, to a machined piece. Tethers have changed and continue to change. Every time I turn around some one is putting a RW above something else. (It's all good I ain't complaining. I enjoy the creativity, but truly wonder about a few of you!) It was only recently Kevin introduced a comprehensive manual that addresses the ever changing tides

Sure many systems have been introduced to the ITCC before "testing". Because we have done it in the past should we keep doing it? Yes, it is impossible to "certify" a hitch based system. However, for competitions we can establish baseline criteria, recommended and/or acceptable set ups. Where should we start testing? When?. The next new system, two systems from now? 2014?

In the end, the ideal as I see it for ITCC is yes, to have all systems used meet specific performance criteria to comp level standards. (This was the purpose to developing a performance criteria) We cannot turn back the clock, we can only pick up and start anew.

Is it fair? Probably not, but then life is rarely fair and only occasionally just. (Usually through some form of irony.)
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It is time to stop crying, stop crying foul, get to work or leave it all behind and go do some tree work.

If you think my last sentence was redundant, great. If you think I stumbled in diction, thanks for reading closely. If you are offended so be it.

Tony
 
Tony,

I would agree with you that this argument has not really been about the viability of the RW as a potentially safe option for climbers. Anyone willing to take an objective look at the RW and how it is used would see pretty quickly that the tool is no more or less dangerous than any other system used in tree climbing.

The argument is, and always has been, that the RW has been and is being treated completely differently than any other technique brought before the ITCC. Considering your extensive history with ITCC operations I won't bore you with details of the multitude of systems that have passed the "eyeball" test and been allowed for use..Do I think the "eyeball test" should continue to be the standard for accepting gear, no. You might be surprised to see that we actually agree on many of the extenuating arguments that the RW has brought to light.

What troubles me is that the ITCC seems incapable of understanding how the RW is used and that they are holding it to a standard which does not even remotely apply to the product.

We keep hearing that "the RW is a life support product and must be labelled as such"...I have seen this exact sentiment in regards to Kevin's new manual for the RW expressed by ITCC officials. If Kevin thought for a second that his invention functioned as a life support device don't you think he would have pursued labeling it as such? Is there anyone on the planet who knows the in and outs of this system better than Kevin? The fact that the ITCC feels they have the right to tell Kevin that his product is being misrepresented as non life support and that he should comply with their wishes is flat out ludicrous to me. The arrogance of that stance is astounding.......

We also keep hearing that the RW has failed many of the tests performed on it. I have been witness to the length and breadth that the ISA has spread this falsehood. There has not been one ounce of data to support this claim of failures provided to date. Can you remember the last time the ITCC did something in this nature regarding any other product? My insurance agent was contacted by a senior member of the ITCC and informed of these failures....again, with no evidence to support the claim.

I am sorry that this drama seems childish and a waste of time to you. I personally have a hard time accepting "because" as a reason as to why one climbing system is valid and another is not...

The argument here is equal treatment. Until the RW is treated equally as every other system I will absolutely NOT stop bringing this to the attention of every ear that will listen. If that bothers you , I apologize....but my fight is not with you, so maybe you can just ignore it all....I can't....
 
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