bowline not as life support

To clarify further... The climber that fell by clipping into the wrong part of his Bowline is not a trained work climber. He is a very well trained rec climber. There is a good and bad in that. In the work climbing world there is generally a strong adherence to rules of the tree climbing road so-to-speak. Rec climbers can also be trained in a very strong "non-work" climbing safety protocol. The difference is that there is a strong degree of individualism and personal climbing style in the rec world. There is the same individualism on the work climbing side but innovation is more strongly grounded in solid work practices. This climber specialized in a very minimal gear approach and some of his own developed technique. I've climbed with him, he's very good. But... I disagree with his choice of attachment knot. That combined with perhaps an over relaxed attitude during a tropical forest vacation climb and perhaps fatigue on a multi-day climb... contributed to his mistake. At any rate the rec climbing community has experienced a huge wake up call, this is the first serious accident in +25 years for climbers trained by a group of instructors teaching a similar safety protocol. The climber failed to follow several safety protocols that he was well aware of. I come from a rec climbing background and also do professional tree work so I understand the similarities and differences. Thought that might help folks understand the context of the accident. -AJ
 
moss said:
To clarify further... The climber that fell by clipping into the wrong part of his Bowline is not a trained work climber. He is a very well trained rec climber. There is a good and bad in that. In the work climbing world there is generally a strong adherence to rules of the tree climbing road so-to-speak. Rec climbers can also be trained in a very strong "non-work" climbing safety protocol. The difference is that there is a strong degree of individualism and personal climbing style in the rec world. There is the same individualism on the work climbing side but innovation is more strongly grounded in solid work practices. This climber specialized in a very minimal gear approach and some of his own developed technique. I've climbed with him, he's very good. But... I disagree with his choice of attachment knot. That combined with perhaps an over relaxed attitude during a tropical forest vacation climb and perhaps fatigue on a multi-day climb... contributed to his mistake. At any rate the rec climbing community has experienced a huge wake up call, this is the first serious accident in +25 years for climbers trained by a group of instructors teaching a similar safety protocol. The climber failed to follow several safety protocols that he was well aware of. I come from a rec climbing background and also do professional tree work so I understand the similarities and differences. Thought that might help folks understand the context of the accident. -AJ
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Thanks for the info. That's quite a fall. Was he badly hurt ?
 
moss said:
... I disagree with his choice of attachment knot. That combined with perhaps an over relaxed attitude during a tropical forest vacation climb and perhaps fatigue on a multi-day climhab... contributed to his mistake. ........The climber failed to follow several safety protocols that he was well aware of. ...... -AJ
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I sure agree with you and very strongly about the choice of attachment knot, thus of course the video, IMO the bowline has no place on the carabiner nor does the figure 8 which is a common practice in the protocol I think you are referring to. I'm not sure about the "over relaxed" attitude. There was a safety meeting that set a tone on the first day but as you elude to, it is not a work environment and it would be difficult to mandate certain standards or methods. Not sure about the fatigue as he was actually just getting down from a relaxing time sitting in a hammock watching the ocean but perhaps that alone can lend itself to this kind of incident. I had just walked past and said hello an hour before.
What would you say were the safety protocols that you feel he failed to follow?
It will be interesting to see how this effects future such activities and climbs such as the annual rendezvous.
He was very lucky in that he only suffered a very badly broken arm, fractured vertebrae and lots of bruising and rope burns. He landed in sand narrowly missing the buttress of the tree and some rocks. I was very concerned that with a fall like that he would have massive internal injuries and bleeding. Part of what helped was that he hit a branch on the way down and also had one leg of his climbing line running under his thigh. We had to evacuate him by boat to the nearest hospital.
All said, very very lucky and a real reminder of the risk we all take in a high risk but NOT DANGEROUS environment.
Moss, as you point out, the rec climbing community has a very good safety record in spite of a "strong degree of individualism and personal climbing style". I suppose it would be similar to the rock climbing community that does not even have a "work" equivalent. Perhaps that is why so much innovation comes from the rock community and the tree climbing community is so far behind. i.e. acceptance of SRT.
 
Yoyo, you mentioned the figure 8. Do you mean on a bight? If so, that's the chosen form of attachment for rock climbers isn't it? Only reason we don't use them is they're too bulky.
 
yoyoman said:
What would you say were the safety protocols that you feel he failed to follow?
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He was originally trained to always do a BACK check whenever clipping into a life support rope system. Belt (saddle), Anchor (supporting limb) Carabiner, Knot.

The other protocol taught is that whenever you're up in a tree and you switch over to a new tie-in, you clip in to the new tie-in, slack your previous tie-in enough to load up your new tie in but do not detach it. Then fully load your new tie-on with your entire body weight and verify you have a secure attachment. With that verification the climber can then safely detach the original tie-in.

Anyway... I'm just describing the protocols, I'm not holier than thou. Following the above protocols takes away considerable risk in tree climbing and would have prevented his fall. -AJ
 
moss said:
.....
Anyway... I'm just describing the protocols, I'm not holier than thou. Following the above protocols takes away considerable risk in tree climbing and would have prevented his fall. -AJ
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Agree with you 100% and I know you are not! As with any accident there is always a chain that leads up to it, break the chain and you can break your fall.
It is by examining the acts and mistakes of others that we hope to avoid our own, certainly not for the opportunity to appear above them or to discount them for lack of...whatever.

Thanks
 
TreeLogic said:
Yoyo, you mentioned the figure 8. Do you mean on a bight? If so, that's the chosen form of attachment for rock climbers isn't it? Only reason we don't use them is they're too bulky.
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Exactly, 8 on a bight, very popular in the rock community. They need a knot that maintains its strength and is easy to untie after it has been loaded, they take lots of falls on it. They also use screw gate carabiners so they are not so concerned with the cinch. We use "double-locking" which are easier to connect and re-connect but may be subject to opening given the right rope or limb movement. To me an anchor hitch or scaffold knot is strong enough (maybe 5-10%less), cinches so I don't have to worry about it getting cross loaded or doing something strange like opening the "double-locking" gate. (If my watch can fall off my wrist like it did, a limb or rope movement can certainly open that gate.) These cinching knots are also easy to remove when I open the gate and slip out the biner so I don't need the easy to untie quality.
and yes, I agree, too bulky. I think it has been pointed out here, use the right knot for the right application. F-8 for rocks, cinch for trees.......IM (humble, not holier than thou)O. ;-)
 
In rock climbing you alway tie the figure 8 to your harness. Also rock climbers take falls onto non locking biners all the time. I've do on a lot of climbing and have never tied a double 8 onto a biner. Except maybe to clip in a haul bag. Not trying to pick a fight. Just my 2 cents
 
TreeLogic said:
Yoyo, you mentioned the figure 8. Do you mean on a bight? If so, that's the chosen form of attachment for rock climbers isn't it? Only reason we don't use them is they're too bulky.
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We tie in directly to our harness with the figure 8 follow through, if your using the f8 on a carabiner you still run the risk of cross loading-not to say that a lot of people don't do it.
 
Never even thought of the cross loading issue with the 8 on a bight. Good point though. Cinching knots are important with our biners.

I dont always tie in with a knot, but when I do, it's a double fisherman's loop.:)
 
Mark13y said:
We tie in directly to our harness with the figure 8 follow through, if your using the f8 on a carabiner you still run the risk of cross loading-not to say that a lot of people don't do it.
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Ok, so here is a climb I did about a week ago using the equipment provided. Skip right to about :38
Not the way I would set it up but I'm not able to change the way they were instructed.
 
Mark13y said:
We tie in directly to our harness with the figure 8 follow through, if your using the f8 on a carabiner you still run the risk of cross loading-not to say that a lot of people don't do it.
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So you do that because then the knot is easy to untie after you have taken a few falls on it right? So why would it be used tree climbing? Not that YOU do, just why does anybody do it? If the bowline is king of knots, is the F8 queen?
 
Some guys use the bowline with the Yosemite, the 8 is very recognizable even from a distance to see it is tied correctly and it's easy to teach/learn. It's just been the standard in rock climbing throughout the years, not as practical in trees, because we mostly tie into a connecting link of some sort so we need a cinching knot, which is what I do personally for rock climbing-just a double fisherman to a carabiner to make it easy and quick. The bowline will untie easier then the 8 after loaded and is quicker to tie then a rewoven 8 so I don't see see too many applications for the 8 in trees
 
Richard ,you are a piece of work . I hope I see you at an expo . We'll see if you buy rounds , the only thing learned from this post was you learning how to make a post . A yo yo goes up and down , you go all over the place . Like a kid , who can't say he ate the last cookie . Read the first post , watch the video , and ????. Since you were in Germany , I'll take a Heineken . Two , thanks , cover your ears . Keep em open , listen lessons are free, after two free beers . Read and watch the first post of this thread , anybody with a clue . It is what it is , own it Richard , I think you learned more from this thread about the bowline than you did when you were hiding in the basement filming the death of the bowline . " oh , the Bowline came at me while I was in the shower , with a knife " That was the original plot for Hitchcock when he made Physco . Teasing , we all hang out and film loose knots on an oil tank . We do , that's what tree people do , than we , um , like , you know , make them come untied . Hey , you know what , that's cool though . IS .
 
This should be ingrained into every climber's head:

"The other protocol taught is that whenever you're up in a tree and you switch over to a new tie-in, you clip in to the new tie-in, slack your previous tie-in enough to load up your new tie in but do not detach it. Then fully load your new tie-on with your entire body weight and verify you have a secure attachment. With that verification the climber can then safely detach the original tie-in."

thanks Moss.

Riggs, take a break man, you sound stressed ;)
 
Raven said:
This should be ingrained into every climber's head:

"The other protocol taught is that whenever you're up in a tree and you switch over to a new tie-in, you clip in to the new tie-in, slack your previous tie-in enough to load up your new tie in but do not detach it. Then fully load your new tie-on with your entire body weight and verify you have a secure attachment. With that verification the climber can then safely detach the original tie-in."

thanks Moss.

Riggs, take a break man, you sound stressed ;)
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The first thing that climber told me when I saw him laying on the ground was,"I thought I was tied in twice". it is quite possible that bight from the yosemite tie off held just long enough for the protocol to be exercised. I agree 100% about checks and protocols PLUS discussing other posible failures so we can see them coming and avoid them. Pretty sure we are all careful not to clip into a caritool, because we have heard about that before we had to figure it out or experience it.
 
For sure. Gotta watch out for the caritool clip. I use an old oval to clip my saw to for that very reason.( I rock a treemotion) try n keep the caritools more towards the back of the saddle. Sometimes on cold mornings were I know it is going to warm up before I get out of the tree I wear a fleece over my sadle so I can unzip it a chuck it when it warms up. Definitely clipped my oval before cause it's hard to see. Not great but in my opinion much better than clipping a caritool.
 
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