bowline not as life support

TreeLogic said:
How many tanks do you think before she's running up to snuff?
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I must be near 10/12 in mine now and still improving. Not sure when that will stop. First few was having to choke it for each start and almost having to warm it up each time before cutting....but that's gradually leveled out. The cutting accuracy and finish is what impressed me a lot....where some delicate pruning cuts one would choose a handsaw to get the neat finish required, but not so much with this saw. Probably some will disagree but that's how it is for me. The saw clearly works better on high revs though.
 
Reg said:
......but I wont deny since becoming irritated not to even receive and acknowledgment let alone an answer from Richard, of which his silence is still deafening. That is rude IMO. Read my posts again.
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I have been in Germany for a few days and away for this thread, I did not mean to be rude.
I know many of you have been offended that I would "cut" the bowline, not my intention, I had fresh in my mind a fall that nearly cost a friend his life. The knot was not properly tied IMO and I recognized a possible flaw that may be repeated so I tired to duplicate it for demonstration purposes.
I have attached here the actual knot after the fall.
I listened to my video and have a few clarifications but also please realize that this incident was fresh on my mine and I was pretty focused on the particulars of this accident.
I should have said, it is a great knot but not for life support as connected to the carabiner of your saddle. (I was making the assumption that those watching the video would make that association from the video.)
I should not have said, "easily roll out", better would have been to say, it CAN roll out if not T,DandS properly.
Somebody mentioned tying the bowline with a tight eye. I think that also contributed to this indecent. One of the great characteristics to the bowline is that it is NOT a cinching knot, tying with a tight eye is IMO an attempt to give it a characteristics it does not have. This also contributed to the incendent in that the knot itself did not have to move very far to become "misoriented" with the yosimite tie-off becoming more like the actural bowline loop. If someone wanted to use the bowline and still get a "cinch" out of it I would probably put a clove hitch in the loop of the bowline. But then I would not use the bowline in this case anyway.
When I mentioned in the post by moss that, "I think your example and explanation is the perfect example of the "how to do it right" way."
my intention was not "THE" right way. I know that is a fine distinction but if you know me, unless it is a scientific or mathematical fact, I believe there are MANY, DID I SAY MANY!, "right" ways of doing things and what works best for you is extremely important. That is a whole other topic.
At any rate, I hope you guys understand I am not against any particular knot or anyone using it and certainly understand that it is the "king of knots" because it has been around for a long time, maintains excellent rope strength, unties pretty well and does not cinch.
But you will never see me tie one on a carabiner used for my life support.
Just mention this thread to me at the next expo and I'll buy you a round.

Cheers

Richard




Bowline.webp
 
yoyoman said:
I have been in Germany for a few days and away for this thread, I did not mean to be rude.
I know many of you have been offended that I would "cut" the bowline, not my intention, I had fresh in my mind a fall that nearly cost a friend his life. The knot was not properly tied IMO and I recognized a possible flaw that may be repeated so I tired to duplicate it for demonstration purposes.
I have attached here the actual knot after the fall.
I listened to my video and have a few clarifications but also please realize that this incident was fresh on my mine and I was pretty focused on the particulars of this accident.
I should have said, it is a great knot but not for life support as connected to the carabiner of your saddle. (I was making the assumption that those watching the video would make that association from the video.)
I should not have said, "easily roll out", better would have been to say, it CAN roll out if not T,DandS properly.
Somebody mentioned tying the bowline with a tight eye. I think that also contributed to this indecent. One of the great characteristics to the bowline is that it is NOT a cinching knot, tying with a tight eye is IMO an attempt to give it a characteristics it does not have. This also contributed to the incendent in that the knot itself did not have to move very far to become "misoriented" with the yosimite tie-off becoming more like the actural bowline loop. If someone wanted to use the bowline and still get a "cinch" out of it I would probably put a clove hitch in the loop of the bowline. But then I would not use the bowline in this case anyway.
When I mentioned in the post by moss that, "I think your example and explanation is the perfect example of the "how to do it right" way."
my intention was not "THE" right way. I know that is a fine distinction but if you know me, unless it is a scientific or mathematical fact, I believe there are MANY, DID I SAY MANY!, "right" ways of doing things and what works best for you is extremely important. That is a whole other topic.
At any rate, I hope you guys understand I am not against any particular knot or anyone using it and certainly understand that it is the "king of knots" because it has been around for a long time, maintains excellent rope strength, unties pretty well and does not cinch.
But you will never see me tie one on a carabiner used for my life support.
Just mention this thread to me at the next expo and I'll buy you a round.

Cheers

Richard
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I'll definitely have a beer with you, maybe it'd help me make better sense of much of the way you communicate. Thats not a put-down by the way, its just that some of the stuff you say doesn't add up to me.

If you were trying to duplicate in the video the fall of your friend, as you just said, why was the line not loaded ? I assume you're friend didn't shake loose his poorly configured knot and then jump out of the tree.

You said, 'somebody mentioned tying a bowline with a tight eye etc'. Somebody? you know full well it was me....I have a name. You said that a tight eye may have contributed to the mishap, without explanation though. And yet your video in which you were trying to duplicate what happened in the accident, you tied a big sloppy eye which was the focal point of much of the criticism ??????? Make your mind up.

And on that note, you went on to point out how it is a mistake to set a tight eye in an attempt to give it cinching
characteristics. Mate, you must think you're addressing a bunch of complete idiots. A tight eye is a tight eye, whether it be tied, stitched or spliced. A cinching knot it a cinching knot. There is no confusion or grey area between the two characteristics.

In response to you shaking loose an un-loaded bowline with a large eye and short tail, I clearly said that if you did the opposite, which any logical thinking person would I believe....which is to set a tight eye and long tail in the video, nothing would happen. Obviously, obviously, because there's more weight in the tail than the eye....and the tail is the first part to go if the knot is going to collapse. So ?

Again, wherever I put a ? in this post, please consider it a question, that I'd appreciate an answer to. Please dont leave the country again just yet. Straight answers to straight questions. Thankyou.
 
MickCPitlick said:
Richard,

The knot in the photo is still tied. Where's the fatal fault?
Sorry if it's obvious and I'm showing my ignorance.
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I think what happened is that the tail of the Bowline was finished with a Yosemite tie-off and the climber clipped into the "bight" of the Yosemite tie-off (there shouldn't be a bight of course) and fell when the tail pulled back down and free. So the Bowline you see is fine, it's not what the climber clipped into. Is that correct Richard?
-AJ
 
Reg said:
I'll definitely have a beer with you, maybe it'd help me make better sense of much of the way you communicate. Thats not a put-down by the way, its just that some of the stuff you say doesn't add up to me.

If you were trying to duplicate in the video the fall of your friend, as you just said, why was the line not loaded ? I assume you're friend didn't shake loose his poorly configured knot and then jump out of the tree.

You said, 'somebody mentioned tying a bowline with a tight eye etc'. Somebody? you know full well it was me....I have a name. You said that a tight eye may have contributed to the mishap, without explanation though. And yet your video in which you were trying to duplicate what happened in the accident, you tied a big sloppy eye which was the focal point of much of the criticism ??????? Make your mind up.

And on that note, you went on to point out how it is a mistake to set a tight eye in an attempt to give it cinching
characteristics. Mate, you must think you're addressing a bunch of complete idiots. A tight eye is a tight eye, whether it be tied, stitched or spliced. A cinching knot it a cinching knot. There is no confusion or grey area between the two characteristics.

In response to you shaking loose an un-loaded bowline with a large eye and short tail, I clearly said that if you did the opposite, which any logical thinking person would I believe....which is to set a tight eye and long tail in the video, nothing would happen. Obviously, obviously, because there's more weight in the tail than the eye....and the tail is the first part to go if the knot is going to collapse. So ?

Again, wherever I put a ? in this post, please consider it a question, that I'd appreciate an answer to. Please dont leave the country again just yet. Straight answers to straight questions. Thankyou.
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Damn, I just keep pissing you off and I'm really not trying to! By the time I buy you enough rounds to make up for it I'll have to carry you home, then you you'll start to take about that dating stuff again!

"...why was the line not loaded ?"
I was making a demonstration because if I tied, dressed and set, then loaded it, it most likely would not have been a demonstration of a "failed" knot. But this is an interesting thing, I understood that he had loaded the line before then passed it up thru a crotch to reposition, when it came back the configuration had changed just enough that he mistook the yosemite tie for the bowline loop, maybe tired, distracted etc. played into it as well.

"Somebody? you know full well it was me....I have a name."
Oops, sorry REG, honestly I read a lot of the post and the name etc is off the margin, I'm more of a subject matter person mostly. I'll try to be more personable ;-) I really did not know it was you and when I tried to find it again it was not working for me as I can't seem to select "ALL" the pages like I used to be able to.

"You said that a tight eye may have contributed to the mishap, without explanation though."
And yet your video in which you were trying to duplicate what happened in the accident, you tied a big sloppy eye which was the focal point of much of the criticism ???????
I'm not sure where the question or comment is on this one so I'll just answer what I think will work.
I think a tight eye, even when tied on a bowline is still not a cinching knot and my preference on a carabiner that I'm going to connect to my saddle and use for life support is going to be either an anchor knot or a scaffold knot depending on the direction I want the line to exit. They both cinch very very well and never slip, I trust them with a very short tail, never see them move. Even a tight eye, if it is not preventing movement like I think it should to keep it away for the gate etc, I will put a keeper on both sides. The disadvantage to these knots normally is that they are extremely hard to untie after some good loading and this is why they work so well on the carabiner, you just open the carabiner and slip it out of the knot. So it is not that the bowline is such a bad knot, it is just not MY best choice when it comes to connecting to a carabiner.

"and the tail is the first part to go if the knot is going to collapse. So ?"
In this case it is because, I believe, the tail was pulled up into the yosemite tie-off, being a longer tail it was more subject to getting pulled when being dragged and pulled thru the tree, thus creating a loop that looked very similar to the tight eye of the bowline. I think this is a little different than the example you are thinking of when the knot is going to come loose with a load and the tail pulls thru.

Ok, Reg, hope I saw all the ??? marks. Look forward to meeting you sometime and getting you drunk.

Cheers
 
moss said:
I think what happened is that the tail of the Bowline was finished with a Yosemite tie-off and the climber clipped into the "bight" of the Yosemite tie-off (there shouldn't be a bight of course) and fell when the tail pulled back down and free. So the Bowline you see is fine, it's not what the climber clipped into. Is that correct Richard?
-AJ
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Exactly! and if you take that tail and put it back up into the knot you can see where it would go and how it would leave what is there.
 
yoyoman said:
Damn, I just keep pissing you off and I'm really not trying to! By the time I buy you enough rounds to make up for it I'll have to carry you home, then you you'll start to take about that dating stuff again!

"...why was the line not loaded ?"
I was making a demonstration because if I tied, dressed and set, then loaded it, it most likely would not have been a demonstration of a "failed" knot. But this is an interesting thing, I understood that he had loaded the line before then passed it up thru a crotch to reposition, when it came back the configuration had changed just enough that he mistook the yosemite tie for the bowline loop, maybe tired, distracted etc. played into it as well.

"Somebody? you know full well it was me....I have a name."
Oops, sorry REG, honestly I read a lot of the post and the name etc is off the margin, I'm more of a subject matter person mostly. I'll try to be more personable ;-) I really did not know it was you and when I tried to find it again it was not working for me as I can't seem to select "ALL" the pages like I used to be able to.

"You said that a tight eye may have contributed to the mishap, without explanation though."
And yet your video in which you were trying to duplicate what happened in the accident, you tied a big sloppy eye which was the focal point of much of the criticism ???????
I'm not sure where the question or comment is on this one so I'll just answer what I think will work.
I think a tight eye, even when tied on a bowline is still not a cinching knot and my preference on a carabiner that I'm going to connect to my saddle and use for life support is going to be either an anchor knot or a scaffold knot depending on the direction I want the line to exit. They both cinch very very well and never slip, I trust them with a very short tail, never see them move. Even a tight eye, if it is not preventing movement like I think it should to keep it away for the gate etc, I will put a keeper on both sides. The disadvantage to these knots normally is that they are extremely hard to untie after some good loading and this is why they work so well on the carabiner, you just open the carabiner and slip it out of the knot. So it is not that the bowline is such a bad knot, it is just not MY best choice when it comes to connecting to a carabiner.

"and the tail is the first part to go if the knot is going to collapse. So ?"
In this case it is because, I believe, the tail was pulled up into the yosemite tie-off, being a longer tail it was more subject to getting pulled when being dragged and pulled thru the tree, thus creating a loop that looked very similar to the tight eye of the bowline. I think this is a little different than the example you are thinking of when the knot is going to come loose with a load and the tail pulls thru.

Ok, Reg, hope I saw all the ??? marks. Look forward to meeting you sometime and getting you drunk.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Ok, feels like some progress. Starting to think that your not crazy after all.

"I was making a demonstration because if I tied, dressed and set, then loaded it, it most likely would not have been a demonstration of a "failed" knot"

Thats the main thing I took issue with, Glen too Im guessing. Because you just said it right there, had the knot been loaded it wouldn't have come undone. So who cares that you can shake loose an unloaded poorly tied knot. They'd be nothing to clip into. Its not a relative demonstration, of anything.

Now you're saying that the accident came about because he mistuck the yosemitie for the bowline eye.....a little fu ckn late with that clarification Richard :) but nomatter, here we are. Why unclip the knot from the carabiner? The carabiner adds weight for throwing and flicking, and keeps the knot configured. Is this guy experienced ? Thats an odd move....this is basic stuff again.

As for the last points you made, which Im not going to quote because they're quite long: Nobody has said that there are not better life support knots out there than a bowline....but again it starts back with your video, where you shook loose an unloaded, illogically tied bowline and suggested it good reason not to use a bowline as life support. But by your own admission, had you loaded it, as would be the case if a climber hung in it, it wouldn't have come undone. So that part of the video was pointless from the perspective of climbing.

The second part of your video has some merit....even though, you fu cked and fiddled about with you fingers to confuse the appearance of the knot, as opposed to it apparently happening by just throwing it over a crotch as what supposedly happened to your friend. Bottom line is, your friend really screwed up a very uncomplicated situation. Whats more he didn't even need a yosemite tie where there is far more weight in the tail than the eye. No confusion that way. Dont blame the knot....its user error plain and simple. I looked through some of your other videos, and know your not naive or ill-informed....but please just a little more attention to detail in your posts....saves a lot of time.
 
Reg said:
.....
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Anybody following this............do something for me..........tie a bowline with a tight eye...something that would just fit around your carabiner....leave about a foot of tail....now someone tells you that a bowline is even better if you finish it with a yosemite......do it....now look at your knot..........ok, now imagine pulling that thru some of the tree.......a little branch or twig snags for a moment on the yosemite bend pulling it down just below the loop of the bowline....when it comes back to you like it has hundreds of times before, you clip into the loop...............................................I'm done, sorry if my detail caused any of you grief but if ANYONE learned anything from this that makes climbing safer, I think it was worth it.
I don't have to leave the country for a while but maybe I should ;-)


Opps, almost missed one of those marks............"Why unclip the knot from the carabiner?" Personally because I would rather re-tie an easy scaffold knot then get my BINER STUCK IN A CROTCH............now I really have to leave the country!!!!!!!!!!!
 
yoyoman said:
Anybody following this............do something for me..........tie a bowline with a tight eye...something that would just fit around your carabiner....leave about a foot of tail....now someone tells you that a bowline is even better if you finish it with a yosemite......do it....now look at your knot..........ok, now imagine pulling that thru some of the tree.......a little branch or twig snags for a moment on the yosemite bend pulling it down just below the loop of the bowline....when it comes back to you like it has hundreds of times before, you clip into the loop...............................................I'm done, sorry if my detail caused any of you grief but if ANYONE learned anything from this that makes climbing safer, I think it was worth it.
I don't have to leave the country for a while but maybe I should ;-)


Opps, almost missed one of those marks............"Why unclip the knot from the carabiner?" Personally because I would rather re-tie an easy scaffold knot then get my BINER STUCK IN A CROTCH............now I really have to leave the country!!!!!!!!!!!
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Dont get your biner stuck. Make progress by clipping it back to your saddle. Why pull your line back over the crotch where you just threw it ? Please stay in the country, then we know where you are at all times.
 
Though acrimonious, this thread has proved to be entertaining and informative. YoYo is playing 3d Chess. He knew all along how to make a lasting and significant contribution to this community, by laying out some decoy bait. Thanks.
StarTrekChess.jpg
 
watch Mobile.webp

The other day I was riding in a bus and felt my watch fall from my wrist, looked down and picked it up from the floor, it was dark and I thought to myself, darn, now I have to buy another of those pins because I will never find it here in the dark, upon a closer look the pin was still there, JUST LIKE YOU SEE IN THE PICTURE!!
Can someone tell me how in the hell that pin opened enough for the band to let go and then went back into the position you see it. I think you all know what I'm talking about, it seems impossible to me and I don't have any idea how it did that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The pin is in perfect condition, no bends, breaks etc. I re-secured the same pin and have not had a problem for several months. I'M "KNOT" MAKING THIS UP! Believe me, I Tie, Dress and Set my knots and check them too.
 
I think the watch issue has a relatively easy explanation: Teleportation. Your evil doppleganger, OyOy residing in the 4th dimension, transported the pin to his nether world's molecular storage zone. A second later, just to f*ck with you, he popped it back on your band
 
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