Best Management Practices vs ANSI standards?

[Gareth's Tree]

I am wanting to start offering the service of cabling trees. I have some basic knowledge but wanted to learn a little bit more. What is the difference between the Best Management Practices, and the ANSI Standards booklets? I figure they are the place to go to learn about cabling... Unless anyone else has any suggestions?

 

[JD3000]

ANSI standards have a lot of "Shoulds" and "Shalls" re tree work but are a very dry read. BMPs are something like a longer translation of the Standards. Both worth owning

 

[Raven]

Yes they are the same thing just the BMPs are easier to read/share with homeowners whereas the ANSI Standard reads more like a legal document - very dry. Also suggest a thorough understanding of hazard tree assessment (TRAQ) and pruning for structure, reduction, retrenchment, etc. Teach yourself not just the how but the why as well.

 

[cerviarborist]

Think of ANSI standards as a dictionary. ANSI Standards define the terms used in that particular type of work. The Best Management Practices take those defined words and put them into coherent sentences, which accurately describe how the work should be done. You should have both.

I'd also suggest contacting your local ISA chapter to see whether they're offering any cabling/bracing/support systems classes. If none are available, perhaps find a local arborist with depth of experience in this realm, and sub your first job or two to them, with the understanding that you'll be assisting on the job, so that you can learn.

 

[treehumper]

Knowing how is great and these resources will cover that. I'll second what Raven said, learn the why. Cabling and bracing is a prescription, what is the diagnosis? Learn tree biomechanics to help with this.

 

[Raven27]

I've wanted to add cabling as well, but pretty much just dynamic cabling as ice read that's all they do in Europe. Seen a faster and better, less complicated

 

[KevinS]

I've wanted to add cabling as well, but pretty much just dynamic cabling as ice read that's all they do in Europe. Seen a faster and better, less complicated

We do a lot of dynamic cabling at our place. However, to parrot what’s been said learn you tree biomechanics and why you are doing what you are doing and what the end goal is.
I’m not complaining about dynamic cabling at all but to say we’re going to only do dynamic work is limiting and takes the static option out of your toolbox.
Taking any tool or knowledge or potential system out of your toolbox of options is crazy in my mind. Every tree and task is situational and calls for expert knowledge and the best prescription that can be offered by our industry. You may sub out static jobs, you may decline, or you may find ways around to do something almost as good I’m just saying don’t limit your opinions backing yourself and your reputation into an unnecessary corner.

 

[Fairfield]

I have found cabling such as with the Cobra cables is a short term fix ( opinions here welcome on this comment). Each Cobra I have gone back and seen two years later and on have started to girdle the tree with no signs of expansion. In my mind at this point the Cobra needs to be removed and replaced with another system. Now here is the issue I have with that. The Cobra can be pricey taking into account the supplies and time it can take a crew that does them infrequently. Then it girdles or starts to girdle the tree ( damage caused), then we have to place another system ( most likely a traditional cable) into the tree.... again causing wounds that will have to heal once again in the same region as the girdle. Can't be a good thing in my view, but I can be wrong.

 

[Raven]

Cobra stinks (opinion) - it doesn't expand with the tree, is hard to install per specs, and must be replaced frequently.

Now Guardian by Yale is the way to go for dynamic - it's low frills, simple installation and with practice you'll learn how to install it to be easily adjustable in the future. Unfortunately there's been a supply problem and it's hard to get the actual Guardian by Yale. I prefer Branch Saver by All Gear at Knot and Rope Supply (same stuff), Wesspur has a product called TreeGuard (or TreeSave?) that's pretty much the same, and now Treestuff has started selling a product called Dryad by Notch that's the same as Yale Guardian too except it's out of stock.

As for the chafe sleeve I've been using hydraulic hose protective cover from a local source so I can get it when I want.

Anyway back on topic: Steel/static is OK in certain sitiations, Dynamic has it's place too and sometimes I'll do both together. Reduction pruning is sometimes wanted and don't forget the plain old removal option - sprinkle some grass seed on the stumphole and problem solved forever.

One more important aspect of cabling is the annual or bi-annual inspection your client will gush to pay you for. I usually charge $50 to drive over there and look at it from the ground - ea$y

 

[KevinS]

I have found cabling such as with the Cobra cables is a short term fix ( opinions here welcome on this comment). Each Cobra I have gone back and seen two years later and on have started to girdle the tree with no signs of expansion. In my mind at this point the Cobra needs to be removed and replaced with another system. Now here is the issue I have with that. The Cobra can be pricey taking into account the supplies and time it can take a crew that does them infrequently. Then it girdles or starts to girdle the tree ( damage caused), then we have to place another system ( most likely a traditional cable) into the tree.... again causing wounds that will have to heal once again in the same region as the girdle. Can't be a good thing in my view, but I can be wrong.

I don’t know your situation but we had seen problems like that from one of our old employees that installed them with more of a circle then a teardrop shape at the splices.
Not saying it is what happened in your case but it’s something that we saw

 

[chris_girard]

ANSI standards have a lot of "Shoulds" and "Shalls" re tree work but are a very dry read. BMPs are something like a longer translation of the Standards. Both worth owning

Agreed

 

[KevinS]

I have found cabling such as with the Cobra cables is a short term fix ( opinions here welcome on this comment). Each Cobra I have gone back and seen two years later and on have started to girdle the tree with no signs of expansion. In my mind at this point the Cobra needs to be removed and replaced with another system. Now here is the issue I have with that. The Cobra can be pricey taking into account the supplies and time it can take a crew that does them infrequently. Then it girdles or starts to girdle the tree ( damage caused), then we have to place another system ( most likely a traditional cable) into the tree.... again causing wounds that will have to heal once again in the same region as the girdle. Can't be a good thing in my view, but I can be wrong.

Hey there. This girdling issue is interesting to me so you have pictures you can share or species vigour growth rates etc.?

As I’ve said earlier each style of cable is just one tool in the box. If we can see the situation that you were in where, how and why, etc the girdling took place it may help everybody else make informed recommendations for clients

 

[KevinS]

Cobra stinks (opinion) - it doesn't expand with the tree,
As for the chafe sleeve I've been using hydraulic hose protective cover from a local source so I can get it when I want.

Q: is it possible using different chafing sleeves effects how the cable can slide against it

Anyway back on topic: Steel/static is OK in certain sitiations, Dynamic has it's place too and sometimes I'll do both together. Reduction pruning is SOMETIMES wanted

Q: is reduction pruning not part of the BMP to be done before cabling to reduce the load. The thinking being if it needs a cable it has to much load for a crotch of concern or cabling wouldn’t have been recommended

One more important aspect of cabling is the annual or bi-annual inspection your client will gush to pay you for. I usually charge $50 to drive over there and look at it from the ground - ea$y

Absolutely cabling should be approached and sold as a program not a single job like a removal.
Annual or biannually inspection is smart is a moving parts dynamic system.
Education I have found is lacking from us arbs to the home owners. Cobra has a life span of 8 years(going off memory this could be off) clients should know this. Wear, squirrel damage, etc is possible or you wouldn’t need inspections.
An aerial inspection and adjustment each year even if minor can be helpful.

That’s what I think
BTW half of my text is in the quote box as questions above

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

Unfortunately the BMP’s and ANSI are fairly limited on their dynamic cabling. They could (and probably plan on it) give much more direction and instruction on dynamic systems and their use.
I too used Cobra for several years. I found it was very easy to sell to preservation clients, until the first inspection came around. I would always provide for free a ground inspection if the client called me back to look at their tree. And several were not overly enthused when the ground inspection revealed a further need only a year later.
We have had both girdle issues, and over expansion issues. Sure maybe we had installation issues, but we followed the complicated instructions to the best of our ability. We have since changed to branch saver and haven’t had the first year issues since.
Currently (as of yesterday) treestuff had the notch product in stock (hopefully cause I ordered it). Knot and rope was in stock as well, but they don’t carry the chafe sleeve.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

What do you mean by "...a further need" after the first inspection

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

What do you mean by "...a further need" after the first inspection

Tom, adjustment. One that stands out in my mind is a Norway maple in a deck. It has 2 cobras in it. The one in the east-west orientation stretched both growth loops out completely the first year. This made the cable sag excessively. I ended up going up and reforming the loop. Don’t know what caused the issue, but the north-south has had no issues in 6 years. Luckily this client has me out 2 or 3 times a year for different items so it’s nothing to look at them.

 

[cerviarborist]

I would always provide for free a ground inspection if the client called me back to look at their tree.

Reading this statement, I couldn't help but notice that you're giving a professional opinion without charging a fee. I appreciate that you're trying to extend top notch service to your clients but this might place you in a precarious position with your insurance company. My own errors and omissions insurance requires that I be under contract with the client and that I have received payment for services, in order for my opinion to be insured. Since my policy premiums are based on how much revenue I take in per year, they don't want to cover opinions that didn't contribute toward that revenue/premium calculation. If you were to render a free opinion and the tree later failed, you might find yourself in a cold and lonely place if your professional insurance underwriting company isn't willing to back you. You might want to discuss this with your agent to get guidance with regard to providing professional services without collecting a fee.

 

[JD3000]

Damn...good post

 

[flyingsquirrel25]

Reading this statement, I couldn't help but notice that you're giving a professional opinion without charging a fee. I appreciate that you're trying to extend top notch service to your clients but this might place you in a precarious position with your insurance company. My own errors and omissions insurance requires that I be under contract with the client and that I have received payment for services, in order for my opinion to be insured. Since my policy premiums are based on how much revenue I take in per year, they don't want to cover opinions that didn't contribute toward that revenue/premium calculation. If you were to render a free opinion and the tree later failed, you might find yourself in a cold and lonely place if your professional insurance underwriting company isn't willing to back you. You might want to discuss this with your agent to get guidance with regard to providing professional services without collecting a fee.

I understand where you are coming from, and i will discuss this with my new insurance agent when we meet next about getting our new policies in place. My only question would be... we all give “free estimates”. I understand there is a big difference between the consults that we charge for and the everyday estimate but there is a very large gray area where clients would like an opinion about what should be done to their tree. For instance a customer says “my Maple needs to be pruned” you come around the corner and sure it needs to be pruned, but I can’t write it up as “prune red maple”. I have to explain to them my opinion of what needs to be pruned... and why. And if I think it needs cabling (just to keep us kind of on topic) that’s my opinion and I would be remiss in not expressing that need. I guess what I’m saying is unless you strictly do consulting work you are going to give your opinion, and many times for free. And of course no matter how much I pay my ins co... they will try to find a way to dodge payment of a claim.
This topic will definitely be one of the items I want clarification on and insure it’s all straightened out and within my new policies.

 

[treehumper]

I couldn't help but notice that you're giving a professional opinion without charging a fee. I appreciate that you're trying to extend top notch service to your clients but this might place you in a precarious position with your insurance company

This is a great point. It just adds to the need to understand what is a billable service and thus at the least should include a price tag, whether you collect on it or not. In the case of the inspection it needs to be a billable service vs. the proposal based on a clear objective. The service in the first instance is the inspection but in the second instance it's the actual pruning work. If you were asked to create specs for an RFP then that is the service not the actual pruning work.

The "my maple needs to be pruned" example is one that often leaves me feeling I need to turn this around into an assessment service first before arriving at a prescription. Here's where objectives come into play. If the objective is merely physical (clearance from a building for instance) then it can be straightforward. However, there are plenty of other things that are going on that may suggest further investigation. I've come across plenty of issues that left me wondering why I was just pruning out branch A when there were other obvious issues that needed to be diagnosed and addressed. Could it be an opportunity to step back and offer a more comprehensive diagnostic regimen for a set fee?

I think doing this can set one apart from the competition and enable you to establish a means of evaluating the tree before doing something that is going to be rendered moot upon discovery of a larger issue. Liken it to pruning an ash tree that is in the midst of an EAB quarantine area. Would you not first assess the overall health to determine it's candidacy for treatment before even thinking about the pruning?

We need to wrap our heads around the idea that we are knowledge workers first and as such need to be compensated for it. That we can also do the physical work is what is called vertical integration in the business world.