ANSI 101

pancake

pancake

Location
New England (NH)
This is a continuation from a thread we totally pirated from Dusty regarding Snakebite being legal. A more proper place for this discussion.

TMW, if you really believe in what you are doing with the committee, you shouldn't feel the necesitity to defend the committee, regardless of how much money you have spent. Let the other guys stand up for their calls and votes. I don't have a problem with the Z, I just don't see the need for the committees political Bovine Scatology that seems to bog the process down to a standstill. Also, age and experience usually trumps all, but our industry is advancing very rapidly and we need to be sure that tech savy individuals are being represented. 2 over 2 natural crotch isn't my climbing system, can't speak for anyone else- I just want assurance that the modern climbing styles and systems aren't being overlooked due to unfamiliarity by committee members. I would like to believe you and Tom are voting or siding with (don't know if you guys are voting members) with the "silent majority" ROYCE mentioned.

Who gets to vote?
How are voting members chosen?
How do we make reservations?
What is the most appropriate way to get on the agenda?
What can we as a group do to organize and be heard without making you or the committee feel the need to defend yourselves?
 
Tom or Tim, are there other TreeBuzz Members who are on the committee that could enlighten us or we could lobby? Or people who attend regularly? Norm Hall maybe? Mahk Adams? I have learned from this discussion already. What does the cost of the actual Z book go for, do they go to support the committee's activities directly?
 
Sorry keith I misread your post. I thought you were balking at the price of the publication.

Thats a good question! I would bet the profits go towards the costs of the meetings, and materails associated witht he meetings/publications?
 
[ QUOTE ]
8.1.8 Arborist climbing lines shall have a minimum diameter of 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) and be constructed from a synthetic fiber, with a minimum breaking strength of 5,400 pounds (24.02 kN) when new. Maximum working elongation shall not exceed 7 percent at a load of 540 pounds (2.402 kN). Arborist climbing lines shall be identified by the manufacturer as suitable for tree climbing.

EXCEPTION
In arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1, a line of not less than 7/16 inch (11 mm) diameter may be used, provided the employer can demonstrate it does not create a safety hazard for the arborist and the arborist has been instructed in its use. The strength and elongation ratings of the line selected shall meet or exceed that of 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) arborist climbing line.

[/ QUOTE ]

what you anit reading is the fine print there bud, a rope of not less than 7/16 can be use to acend into the tree, what they want is for you to use a 1/2 to work and climb with.

All and all we should just follow the standards set across the pond as USA standards are just plain stone age. For the most part anything new to this field comes from over there anyways.
 
[ QUOTE ]
What does the cost of the actual Z book go for, do they go to support the committee's activities directly?

[/ QUOTE ]

Keith,

I have time to answer this one tonight:

You would have to ask the ISA what they do with the $15 +/- per book that they receive.

The only thing that is covered, meaning that the ASC committee members do not pay for is the rental of the room that we meet in and lunch.
 
what!!! free lunch where do I sign up? is a free beer included also?
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[ QUOTE ]


what you anit reading is the fine print there bud, a rope of not less than 7/16 can be use to acend into the tree, what they want is for you to use a 1/2 to work and climb with.



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I missed that part too...
 
[ QUOTE ]
what you anit reading is the fine print there bud, a rope of not less than 7/16 can be use to acend into the tree, what they want is for you to use a 1/2 to work and climb with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correction:

That is not what that section is saying.

It is saying that a line that is less than 1/2 inch can be used for climbing as long as the employer can show that it does not create a safety hazard and the employee has been instructed in its use.

It also is saying that lines that are less than 1/2 inch can not be used for climbing in line clearance (arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1).
 
[ QUOTE ]
In arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1, a line of not less than 7/16 inch (11 mm) diameter may be used

[/ QUOTE ]

Last thing I want is another pissing match but your'all words that ya'll voted on! there is no regulation on how to get into the tree captain, ladder, belly boy truck, dare I say spikes. So it supersedes z133.1 allowing a static line of 7/16 5400lb rating to footlock. But ya'll want to have the work done on a 1/2 approved rope or it can be 11m long as you trained and it is of 5400lb rating.
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I guess I'll try to answer the rest of these as well, at least briefly:

Who gets to vote? / How are voting members chosen?

The process for determining who gets to vote has recently changed. Prior to the last meeting in April, the process was as follows; an affected party (company, organization or individual) sends a letter to the ISA requesting a seat on the committee. They would include information on why they felt that they should be a voting member (resume, etc.) A representative of the company, organization or the individual would attend the meeting and would be introduced to the committee; the committee would have seen the letter and supporting information. The following meeting there would be a vote.

The new system is similar except the process is a little more selective. The committee size has been limited. They have limited the number of sectors represented to make sure that there is less chance of one group dominating. If you check your TCI Magazines of Arborist News from earlier this year, you will see the requests that ISA sent out for people to apply, and a description of the process. I believe that it was also posted here, but I have attached the application.

How do we make reservations?

It would be best to contact the ISA to let them know that you are coming.

What is the most appropriate way to get on the agenda?

It would be best to contact the ISA to let them know that you would like to be on the agenda

What can we as a group do to organize and be heard without making you or the committee feel the need to defend yourselves?

I am going to answer this and respond to a similar comment from your post. I feel very strongly about the standard, as some of you may have noticed. I feel that it is important to support the standard, for two reasons: 1) the nature of the creation of a consensus standard, and 2) It is what we have until we change it (details on both below)

1. A consensus standard implies that there will not likely be in 100% agreement on every item. The point is that if the group can come live with the document, it should.

2. It isn’t perfect but if we don’t follow it, we run the risk of having OSHA force something on us like they tried to do earlier this year. Part of the reason why the first directive was rescinded was due, in part, to many members of the committee.

We defend ourselves when we are attacked. This has happened often, even on the Buzz. It is not often that people have offered suggestions. Most often it was comments implying that our collective craniums were inserted in various orifices, or we are “big government” telling the little man what to do.

If people want to see things changed, there are ways to do so:

1. Submit suggestions to ISA via the form in the back of the standard.

2. Contact voting members, interested parties or members of the various task groups to make your voice heard

3. Apply to become a voting member

4. Become an "interested party" and attend the meetings.

Keith et al,

I hope that this clears things up a little bit.

Thanks,

TMW
 

Attachments

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
8.1.8 Arborist climbing lines shall have a minimum diameter of 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) and be constructed from a synthetic fiber, with a minimum breaking strength of 5,400 pounds (24.02 kN) when new. Maximum working elongation shall not exceed 7 percent at a load of 540 pounds (2.402 kN). Arborist climbing lines shall be identified by the manufacturer as suitable for tree climbing.

EXCEPTION
In arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1, a line of not less than 7/16 inch (11 mm) diameter may be used, provided the employer can demonstrate it does not create a safety hazard for the arborist and the arborist has been instructed in its use. The strength and elongation ratings of the line selected shall meet or exceed that of 1/2-inch (12.7 mm) arborist climbing line.

[/ QUOTE ]

what you anit reading is the fine print there bud

[/ QUOTE ]

Who exactly are you calling bud? The point of this post is the mechanics of the committee, not 8.1.8. But since you mentioned it- where is the fine print you are interpreting?

Thanks TMW, Didn't mean for you to write a thesus. This is great information to get out there. I intend on persunig this, at a minimum attending the RI meeting.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Tom or Tim, are there other TreeBuzz Members who are on the committee that could enlighten us or we could lobby?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pancake,

I serve on the Z-133-Accredited Standards Committee (ASC) as the representative to the Society of Municipal Arborists. My first priority is to represent the SMA, and the many issues that municipal Arborists are being faced with. Secondly, I am a climbing Arborist, so issues that affect the climbing Arborist are very important to me as well.

Many municipalities hire climbing Arborists, so the issues that affect private tree services on this aspect would also affect municipal tree services, too. I would be more than happy, as I’m sure Tim and Tom would too, to bring issues, which will affect the climbing Arborists, before the Z-133 committee.

Yours for Safe Tree Work,
Mike Dirksen
 
Good to know Mike, thanks. I feel the "silent majorities" voice getting louder. 2 interesting websites:

for a history of the Z:

www.fs.fed.us/treeclimbing/resources/ansi-z133

and also check out the 22 million dollar non profit

www.ansi.org

look at the "about" tab, wow.

Seems like the link on TCIA's website to the ISA for the committee applications is closed. Meaning the voting is happening? Who votes?

I intend on finding out where the funds go when we purchase the book. I don't think their being wrongly appropriated, just want to know. Probabally publishing costs.

If a group on the committee were to dominate, what would they do? Would the other committee members not be able to stand up and block the proposed measures?

I am not leveling an attack at the committee TMW, but I have heard the animated, but accurate, description you gave used frequently. Maybe because the revisions seem to take so long it seems like they are going no where. How many voting members are there under the new system? Is there a list of these members somewhere?

Why was the Secretariat position moved from the NAA to ISA? It would appear that TCIA has more focus on the Z and legislation than ISA these days. It is critical that we educate ourselves on the process and get active- we were after all, recently put in the same bed with loggers. Not that there is anything wrong with loggers, we aren't doing the same work- that's all. How many of you are familiar with OSHA's logging directives? You should read them. Why is it so hard to seperate the two groups?

I am not smart enough to develop a conspiracy theory but here goes: Government is in bed with the insurers who want to keep the rates for tree companies high (to keep the money rolling in), and if they (meaning us) get their own OSHA standards (the Z) we have to seperate, break down, interpret and look at real accident data which might prove that they are safer than we think. We would then be forced (because of capatilism) to offer lower rates to companies that comply with the standard and operate safely.
 
[ QUOTE ]
It also is saying that lines that are less than 1/2 inch can not be used for climbing in line clearance (arboricultural operations not subject to regulations that supersede Z133.1).

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? It would seem that the tighter carrier braid pattern that makes the rope more hydrophobic and dirt resistant would cater to the Utility Industry.
 
I hear ya.

Obviously I don't know as much about this as Tom and Tim but the Mass Arborists' recently got a seat on the Z committee and are planning on having an alternate attend the meetings as well. Food for though. Maybe the NHaa could ask for a seat??
 
Not a bad idea. Can someone tell me how to link an old post to this one, seems like I am a day late and a dollar short, late for the party. Who will the MAA rep be? UMASS is already duly represented, so I would hope the rep would not come out of academia. No offense to those who are offended by that remark.
 
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