another notched spar descent accident

This is sad news, like all accidents we read/hear about. Let's wish Ken well and try to learn how we can keep it from being duplicated.

Some of the replies here will never get a serious look from members who do not wish to argue about petty things. Why do some have to get so inflamed in their posts? How will you ever get a serious discussion to continue when the replies are geared this way?

My serious reply to this would be that some techniques in the field fit a purpose and become popular for many reasons. Some of these techniques have been deemed "unsafe" by ANSI or CSA or other groups, yet many have felt great using them and therefore don't give them up very easily.

This technique is used many times each day by many loggers without any accidents that I am aware of. Just watch the helicopter logging operations and you'll see this. Safe to some is not safe to others. I would try to avoid any technique that has caused experienced climbers to go down. So, I won't use this technique.

Rappeling off of a tagline is not allowed by ANSI as is the mixed use of any gear. Personal climbing gear is supposed to be kept seperate. Have I done this before? Sure, but are we talking about the best practices or just what the rules say? Many go hand in hand.

I for one am certain that I do not have all of the answers and believe that this opinion of myself will keep me from pointing my finger as much as I see others do.
 
thanks mark, well said.

some of the petty squabbling lately on this site makes me wonder where the phrase gossiping "like a bunch of old women" comes from. maybe we should change it to "like a bunch of strong-minded industrial athletes"..? let's keep TB informational gentlemen. thanks to those who've shown restraint and a respectful request to those who haven't to take a breath and count to three (or maybe fifty) before hitting "reply".
k.
 
I was thinking about this one for quite a while having used this technique alot over the years. I think that as opposed to banning things such as this knowing that it exists , it would be betterto maybe making some standards that would apply would apply: such as; when applying this teqnique it must be backed up by a flip line. Or I have sometimes thrown a prussik on the pull line(for a backup) while rapping off drt when I have cut my notch in the spar. Also maybe some standard as far as specifically how to cut the notch and what size trunk it is acceptable to use it on.
Oh and as far as what Mark and Kathy said regarding certain attitudes that I have seen display here- I think it is a national problem with people having too much pent up rage that they are looking to vent in any direction. The internet offers a passive aggresive way for folk to "bow up"to each other with out really having to back it up.
One man's simple opinion. Make that one simple man's opinion. Take care y'all- skew
 
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I think it is a national problem with people having too much pent up rage that they are looking to vent in any direction.

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I would agree, yet say that it is international!
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I would agree, yet say that it is international!
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As it is pretty obvious we are not all from the same planet I would say it is cosmical.
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thanks mark, well said.

some of the petty squabbling lately on this site makes me wonder where the phrase gossiping "like a bunch of old women" comes from. maybe we should change it to "like a bunch of strong-minded industrial athletes"..? let's keep TB informational gentlemen. thanks to those who've shown restraint and a respectful request to those who haven't to take a breath and count to three (or maybe fifty) before hitting "reply".
k.

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Well said, Kathy. Thanks for bringing this incident to our attention and sparking a discussion about this kind of practice. Hopefully more people can heed your advice about posting.
 
Yes but what about my standardization plan? seems to make sense as i pointed out this is not an entirely unusual practice. As well as it can be done safely with a reasonable amount of care. One simpleton's opinion
 
I don't think a flipline back-up is really a good suggestion. If you were to slip or gaff out the flipline will only keep your face and body close to the trunk and probably not ctach you. Maybe there are better ways. Problem is that the logging operations I mentioned aren't using a tagline. They want to rappel off and maybe swing into the next tree. So, they want a quick and function method. My solution would be a false crotch (Ropeguide for me) or a retievable chocked method.
 
This is the second serious injury in a year at STP. The one prior to this, myself and the ops manager told J. that the climber needed to be grounded. He finally grounded himself, a little to quickly. Then Ken gets hurt. Had even a portion of the varied discussion on this incident occured at on of their safety meetings, Kenny would probably be fine. There are many ways to get things done. Guidelines, if any are followed, allow the individual to make a change in plans to fit the scenario. Training, even for the "experts" is beneficial. Not only do I hope Ken gets better, but I hope that J. gets it together before he suffers a fatality at his company.
 
Everyone who reads this should take everything Wiley P writes with a cup of salt. He is a disgruntled former STP employee who went almost as far as threatening my life. He is banned from our property and staff is instructed to call 911 should be ever show up. Ken Crowell, the injured climber, (with seven cracked vertebrae and seven broken ribs from a 20' fall), has forgotten more about trees and tree work than Wiley P knows!!

Ken Crowell takes full responsibility for his accident and is kicking himself constatnly for making such a basic mistake. This exact type of accident was discussed at a recent safety meeting, which, by the way, take place every other Friday, on company time. Seattle Tree Preservation, Inc. has more safety meetings than probably any other company in the state. I stand behind my record and I'm sick of angry, aging tree climbers taking pot shots at our high level of professionalism.

John Hushagen
Seattle Tree Preservation, Inc.
 
Ken had four ways he could have descended from the 20' stub.

1. hook down with flip line and spurs.

2. Call for an extension ladder to be brought from the truck and walk down.

3. rapell down the tag line.

4. make the fateful false crotch and hope you make it deep enough and execute it correctly.

Yes, this company has had two serious falls from trees in the last 15 months. In early October, '05, a climber with 7 years experience was trying to teach himself to use an ascender to go up a Douglas fir tree. (He should have leaned a ladder against the trunk and walked up, but that's for another day). He failed to tie a knot in the end of his rope and he somehow managed to open his ascender before he got to the first branch, and he fell backward 20', bounced off a hedge, and landed on a patio. He broke his pelvis and spent four months off work. The of the story here is do step A, then go to B, and don't skip to C until you have mastered B. He was trying to use an ascender when he should have been body thrusting or foot-locking.

John51
 
My .02 worth. I don't climb, don't want to, but I see a lot of it and I am a very good observer. If you cant trust your line or rope with your life then throw it away, regardless of what you use it for. If you would not repel with it why would you even use it to tie down a ladder to your truck. If it fails, falls off and kills someone in a car it still should have been thrown away. If your tag line is that bad, and you trust it to pull that stick over and not fail causing injury why use it? That being said any rope you put in a tree should be trustworthy with your life. I know W_P and he is obsessed with ropes, limits and safety. I have to, my family, workers families and my workers lives depend on his judgment, I have no worries when he helps me out.

JP51 I would also hope that you shake from that same cup of salt and understand what you say in the community looks just as petty. I have heard your word out there and feel it does not do either party good. A vindictive employer is no better than a disgruntled employee.
 
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I would try to avoid any technique that has caused experienced climbers to go down.

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Could it be this simple? Seems like a proper statement that cuts through all the rhetoric, ifs, ands, and buts.
 
well it seems that the more controversial threads also seem to be some of the most informative as well, this is probably why they become so heated... because important issues are being discussed.

Hope for a quick and safe recovery for Ken, at least a good discussion and look at the techniques and practices have been discussed here and come out of it. very informative thread... cheers


jp
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John51, using a ladder to decend or acend a tree i have come to find is probably one of the worse ways to work a tree. That leaves you untied in at 20 feet. Another reason why I think that people who clean gutters, painters, and roofers have a more scary job than arborists in many situations.

Leave the ladders for detaching the phone lines from the house and getting onto the garage.
 
treebing, careful the use of ladders is a very popular choice for a lot of arborists. The key to using the ladder is ALWAYS TIE IN FIRST (use throwline and find a good TIP). It saves from having to body thrust or footlock the first thirty to forty feet, although setting them up sometimes is more difficult than just humping up the tree...

jp
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oh, well if your tied in then it doesn't matter how you get into the tree. Back when I was just learning to climb I worked for a guy in Montana and he would send me 30 feet into the tree on a ladder and then I would buck in. That was silly and a lot of climbers do that. It was "safe as long as someone was holding the ladder.
 
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