another notched spar descent accident

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I, personally would never use that method. AFS or a choked system always.
 
I personally have used that method, it was taught to me by my original trainer but I only used it until I figured out much better and safer options. It always scared the bejesus out of me when using the notch.

One thing I can't figure out about rapping the tagline is whether or not you are using your climbing line as the tagline. If so then you are climbing on a rope that is seriously suspect due to the abuse it is taking. If you have worked the whole tree with your climbing line don't you then ask for a tagline to be tied on? Once the tag line is tied off you can either use a running bowline or your favorite midline anchor knot and capture a biner which you use to choke on your climbing line around the trunk with say 15' of tail hanging down. After you rap the 15' (I personally use my safety loose on trunk as well for extra safety) just set your spikes and safety then pull down the tail and reset the running bowline tight again. This may take you a little longer to get down, but you aren't rapping the abused tagline and you will need several things to go seriously wrong before you get into trouble.

Count me in as a strong believer in the AFS. That is my current method of choice for working down spars.
 
The title of this thread alone ( another notched spar descent accident ) should tell us something. If these are ongoing accidents, why not have an alternative method that will prevent these from happening?
 
axeknot,
I am getting the impression that the ropes you are using for your taglines you would not trust to hold 200 pounds. Polypropelene three strand maybe?
I agree with you that rigging and climbing applications should be in general be segregated. What you have to look at when judging safety is the health and quality of the rope you are using. In my opinion If you cant 150% trust a rope to statically hold your weight or even dynamically take your weight in a factor 2 fall, it should be nowhere near your truck unless used as a tie down strap for your wheelbarrow. I have seen companies use used and wasted climb lines as taglines and I think that is a mistake.

But if I am going to use that tagline to pull over a stem, often times with a GRCS I am not going to take chances with the strength of the rope. I will not skate out onto thin ice.
I think you are taking a general rule of thumb to the extreme. That rule of thumb I think is critical in the case of someone useing their climbing line to dynamically chunk a 500 pound log. Climbing lines are not made for that purpose. Likewise as rich h says, climbing lines should not be used as taglines. But under no circumstances should a rope that could break with 200 lbs or 2000 pounds be used for any application in treework.
If it is damaged while pulling over said tree, retire it. Ropes are not that expensive. A good hockey player should be able to tell if the ice he is skating on is thick enough to hold his weight. Know your ropes and their applications, what they are made to handle and their history.
 
What's wrong with spiking back down the stick ? I don't think i've ever used an 8 to decend from a tree ! I must admit though i know have an AFS which makes coming down large sticks a helluva lot easier !
 
personally, for working down a spar, I use a homeade rope guide. It is that final decent to the ground where using -the tagline is OFTEN the preffered option. This allows me to put away my climbing gear, snagfree, out of the way, and not worry about cleaning it from the ground. My pull line is usually a 1/2 or 5/8 double braid. And there is no "I ALWAYS do this or I ALWAYS do that" every situation is different. I cant think of one now, and I hope it never happens, but maybe someday I will come across a situation where making a notch is the best option. thanks to the pictures posted, I will know how to do it properly, as well as the dangers involved. Thank you for the awakening Kathy.
 
AxeKnot...

It's not that I'm listening...I can't hear if my ears aren't 'on' :) I'm still on holiday with limited 'net access.

Many years ago I used the notch technique but was never comfortable using it either. About the same time I learned that using rigging ropes for climbing ropes wasn't a good practice. That lead to alternative descent techniques.

Using a notched spar concerns me. In order for it to be used there are so many caveats that need to be addressed. There are plenty of alternatives available now that eliminate the risks. Why would any climber take the time whacking away with a saw at the top of a spar instead of setting up some sort of false crotch? Even a sling and biner choked to the top of the spar is better.

Besides what is written in ANSI there are plenty of good reasons NOT to use a tag/rigging line to rapell out of the tree. A basic rope use principal is to not use a climbing line for anything but a climbing line and a rigging line NEVER gets used for a climbing line. NO MATTER WHAT! Geez...the climber would have their climbing line with them to work the tree down to a spar, why not use it to get to the ground?

I'll make a bold statement...anyone who's reading this has the materials at hand to make an adjustable false crotch. All it takes is a length of rope, large HMS style biner, cord and screw link or shackle. Even if the hardware had to be bought balance the cost against the possible injury. Ask your family if they think that you're worth it...
 
Oh no , we're gonna lose credibility as serious climbers to Axeknot . I guess I better go put two hands on my saw , take a drink from my water bladder and ponder my future . The guy made a mistake , don't kick him when he's down . If you use your flip line while descending with an 8 or the notch , I guess that's no good either ? All that loud typing , give me a break , I guess you get a little crazy when you when you have postalotitis.
Hope the guy gets better , hate to hear that stuff.
 
Riggs.......you are a docile factory farmed chicken.

That is all you will ever amount to.

That is all you will ever be.

Thanks for the intelligent response to my post re need for safer techniques descending spars.

I dont get you Riggs, I just dont get you.
And I am eternally grateful for this gift.

Carry on with your notched descent, fool.
 
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Boy, you are a FREAK. Get back to the circus.

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I'm going right now, the number 16 bus takes me direct to The Treehouse. I heard its the mother of all Freakshows.
I hear the main attraction is the group of hirsute women Mr Ed, Steve Bullman, No Bivy, Old Monkey, Frans and Jonseredbred.

I'm looking forward to it.

Should be quite amusing.
 
Cmon Axeknot, if I was gonna be a chicken < I'd be a free range chicken . Get it right . I've came down off a spars in so many different ways , never felt unsafe in any of those methods. The man did trees for twenty five years and got hurt. Did he have a mental lapse ? You have them in all your posts .
I've done the notch way , stub way , tagline way , I even zip lined down a few taglines in my day . Going postal on your rants , isn't going to get this man out of bed. There is safe ways to notch decsend , to think there is not is shallow. If he had his flip line around the trunk , would he have fallen ?
Carry on with your rhetoric fool. MB he is the same guy , just uses different names all the time , don't send him to circus , there's kids there.
 
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MB he is the same guy , just uses different names all the time , don't send him to circus , there's kids there.

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I agree Riggs, you do after all make some relevant posts.

Well done chicken little, keep up the good work.
boidchick.gif
 
Thanks for bringing this to our "collective" attention
Kathy. I remember decending down a spar like that and I
was fortunate enough to get a "Talkin' to" about why what I
did was dangerous. At the time I blew it off like some know-it-all was just giving me a hard time. Next time I see him, I'll thank him. Hope that fella recovers swiftly.
 
The chickens might be little over there in Glasgow , Scotland but they're pretty big over here . I still think the whole notch decending is being overblown a little , not that I do it more than ten percent of the time , but when I do do it , I don't see the problem . For the record I use a retrievable crotch or 8 the tagline most of the time . A rope is a tool , if I choose to use that tool to help me get down a tree , knowing the condition of the rope and it's swl ,I'm using it. I don't think it's been clarified exactly how his rope came off . I heard twenty five years equals watchout , thats not fair . Notching a top is not my first option but it is an option . Don' t fall that is the name of this game . The more options you have in this game , the better. Don't worry grover / Axe I have thick skin to go along with my thick head .
 
Axeknot- I usually agree with you on most subjects. But you seem to be up on a high horse on this thread. I consider myself a serious and good climber. I try to be open minded to both old and new school methods. I do descend on tag line. I also inspect my tag lines regularly. This does not make me an unsafe or non-serious climber. I agree with using a climbing line for climbing only. But descent on a tag line is not demonstrateably unsafe (especially with a lanyard back-up). As a matter of fact, your attitude about this subject makes me think that you are a fair weather arborist, or inexperienced.
 
Ok, you win.

Carry on using your tag/pull line for rappelling.

Its no wonder the Industrial Rope Access Industry looks at the current practices in Arboriculture and worries that we could be so ignorant of proper rope use.

I for one have never used a Tag/Pull line for rappelling from a spar in 10 years of climbing 4 to 5 days per week.

And of the 25 climbers I have work with in that time I have never seen any of them rappel down a Tag/Pull line.

I guess we just value our lives more than you.

I reckon you were told to rappel down the Tag/Pull line by an older climber you respected, who taught you how to climb.

Its ok to let go of these old work practices KyLimbwalker.
If you dont you are sure to be left behind. Dont be so stubborn and sentimental.

In the future your competitors will highlight your unsafe work practices to prospective clients.

Imagine you have an accident rappelling down your Tag/Pull line. Your going to look very stupid, and you are obviously not a stupid person.

Take care friend
 
I guess we have a difference in opinion, Axeknot. You sound like a very safe person- and you should be commended for that. Certainly, using a climbing line to descend a spar is safer than using a tag line. I, however, weigh costs and benefits of new technologies and practices before I adopt them. I adopt new practices when the gain in safety outweighs the costs. The costs being:

1>time to learn the new technique
2>time and energy to employ the new technique on a per job basis
3>cost of extra gear

For myself, knowing what I know and have learned about ropes, I don't think the gain in safety outweighs #2. That doesn't give you the right to judge me or anyone else on this board as to their competence as climbers. Just stay away from judgemental remarks. Cheers.
 
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