5,000 year old Indian Banyan Tree Declining

Freeman,
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you are such a Gloomy Gus! Will you look at this:

"Agriculture scientist and plant pathologist of Punjab Agriculture University (PAU) Ludhiana, Dr Jagtar Dhiman said that any construction near such trees would restrain flow of nutrition required for its growth. He also added that as the roots of such trees expand in acres, it requires periodical treatment from pests and diseases. "Old branches of such trees are replaced by new if they are cut down scientifically," Dhiman pointed out. "

This guy sounds hip to trees' needs, incl restoration pruning, and he is the local authority. Can that be expected in oz? It would be a rare treat in the US. So brighten up your overcoat, and put on a happy face, willya?

Maybe send this guy a Like or 200. We have nothing to be frustrated about, but frustration itself.

goodpredator--how doable would it be for someone to rent a car (with or without driver) at delhi airport and drive to that tree on the way to amritsar?
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"goodpredator--how doable would it be for someone to rent a car (with or without driver) at delhi airport and drive to that tree on the way to amritsar? "

You want to drive?? in India????? Good Luck... You are far better off just hiring a driver, you can get a 24 hour driver for around $40-50 a day, that means the guy sleeps in the car wherever you stay waiting for you.

Driving, had you never been there is most likely a death wish.

Driving, in India... smirk
 
Thanks 223, that is what I'd heard, hence the question about the driver, which would feel weird to even consider in most other countries.

Sean, I understand, but the good thing about pidgeon holes is...birds fly out of them! I'l hop into your worm hole once in a while, but it's so dark in there, I gotta be honest; I can't stay. Nothing personal.
 
Guy as ussual you state your opinion of others as if it were fact...its your opinion your entitled to it but it carries no more weight than that.

I live in neither box nor hole but pity those who think either encapsulates my life..I do not return the baseless insult.
 
I've checked out historic pics of this wonderful banyan tree, and it's obvious that if the tree's best interests were to be truly served by mankind?

In my opinion a 60 ton track hoe with a jackhammer attachment is requisite to deal with man's concrete encirclement, however ornate, and erect a drip line fence, where only the barefooted and humble could pass within to admire or pray.

I'll bet they've got the tools, but lack consensus on whether to unshackle their prisoner that she/he may eat and live?

jomoco
 
It's true, there is reason to be hopeful, miracles happen all the time in India, but so do a lot of other things that are not so miraculous...

Anyways, guymayor, you would definitely want a driver, and those prices given seem correct. I am a train traveler myself, however I am very adaptable and patient and require little comfort. I have watched india sail before my eyes outside my second or third class open air train windows at 100 km/hr and I wouldn't trade it for anything. It's a whole other world over there.

Amritsar is gorgeous and welcoming. I'm already jealous. The Himalayas are my favorite part of India and you wouldn't be far from them in Amritsar. I would ask you if you were going there on a spiritual journey, but every visit to india is a spiritual journey
 
Thanks gp; i am leaning toward the train, and like you i'm fine hanging with the common folk--hate being waited on. I wrote that U guy who was quoted and hope to hear back from him, tho i hear he is retired/ing.

Spiritual yeah kinda you can tell how i tick off my friends like sean that i need the Tigger in me mellowed a bit so serious people do not seem like Eeyore in need of encouragement.

Sikhism yoga practice gets me high without trees hence the amritsar stop. it was a potent coincidence to see this story posted as i am putting together the trip right now, and the tree looks to be only a slight detour. might be a huge bummer that brings me down to helpless Eeyore gloom but maybe that's my karma or dharma or whatever it is.
 
Jomoco, you are certainly right about the need to mitigate the concrete treatment...breaking it up entirely obviously best but there might be other ways to create holes and treat the soil as required.- There are few examples of that (drilling and treatments into the soil profile) here in Queensland and I'm pretty sure there would be plenty in US cities for significant trees.

Guy, you know (or should know) I consider you one of the good guys..there's no drama, I can be spikey just like anyone else, lately too spikey probably...but I'm no Echidna.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Freeman,
bur2.gif
you are such a Gloomy Gus! Will you look at this:

"Agriculture scientist and plant pathologist of Punjab Agriculture University (PAU) Ludhiana, Dr Jagtar Dhiman said that <font color="red">any construction near such trees would restrain flow of nutrition required for its growth. He also added that as the roots of such trees expand in acres, it requires periodical treatment from pests and diseases. "Old branches of such trees are replaced by new if they are cut down scientifically,"</font> Dhiman pointed out. "

This guy sounds hip to trees' needs, incl restoration pruning, and he is the local authority. Can that be expected in oz? It would be a rare treat in the US. So brighten up your overcoat, and put on a happy face, willya?

Maybe send this guy a Like or 200. We have nothing to be frustrated about, but frustration itself.

<font color="blue">Guy,

There's nothing hip here; just the stink of lemmings in high dogma. The pious reassurances of someone pulled into 35 words of simplistic fame:

<font color="red">"Old branches of such trees are replaced by new if they are cut down scientifically,"</font>

Scientifically? Oh, yes. The one turd rule perhaps. An apparently dying legendary/religious tree will bite the dust of prattle squared.

It's 5000 year age seems to outdate our accumulated religions. Maybe the tree should have taken up one of them earlier.


Wulkowicz
 
Bob, I note that you disagreed with nothing the man said.

Compared to what many extension persons say, his words are accurate.

re pruning, true, we don't know what he means by scientific. but note he said "replaced". that indicates perhaps that he has seen restoration pruning done on declining banyans, successfully.

If he writes back I'll let you know, so roll up a few more spitballs just in case.
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[ QUOTE ]
Bob, I note that you disagreed with nothing the man said.

Compared to what many extension persons say, his words are accurate.

re pruning, true, we don't know what he means by scientific. but note he said "replaced". that indicates perhaps that he has seen restoration pruning done on declining banyans, successfully.

If he writes back I'll let you know, so roll up a few more spitballs just in case.
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[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">Guy,

Disagreed with nothing?

My entire intention and direction were mocking and sarcastic. Let me see if I understand it. We replace tree parts by removing parts.

Aren't trees there both--before and after our scientific removals? How could they have survived without us?

It reminds me of the old Russian joke about a mouse who pisses in the ocean, turns to a buddy and says, "See, I made that."

So a mouse makes cuts on a tree, turns to a buddy and says..


Is there a god for hubris?.


wulkowicz</font>
 
[ QUOTE ]
My entire intention and direction were mocking and sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]No Shinola, Sherlock. But yes, by removing declining parts back to concentrations of vitality, new parts are more likely to grow, to replace the old, like the man said.

After 10 years of flogging this nag, I've found that people who prune trees more readily understand this concept (many better than I) than people who do not. If this basic, Shigolicious logic escapes you, prune a few hundred mature trees, watch them for 5 years, then call me in the morning.
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Of course I agree that this potential treatment is a small part of a sad scenario, where root abuse is the main problem, and if it's not addressed, odds of restoration are not so great.
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Whenever I see a thread where Guy and Wulkie I know that there will be some interesting dialog. Two friends of mine who don't get along too well who I get along with well. kind of an odd friendship triangle
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Would someone post a link to pics of this tree? I googled but wasn't sure exactly which tree I should look at. The best would be a link to Google Images so that we can all see a lot of pics.
 
Tom, check this rather charming video (don't know how long it will be up) gives you a much better sense of the very typical seperated multi trunked form of this species of fig (Ficus benghalensis)

http://www.travelomy.com/jyotisar-photos-videos#The-holy-pond-4db45640a5038

Worked with many Indian banyans in Townsville in the late 1990's, IME they do not respond well to being buried like that - its to be hoped that there are none of the potential soil bourne pathogens common to North Queensland in that part of India.

I would very strongly suspect that the normal internal horizontal connections between seperate trunks have almost all been severedd over the years as the temple complex has developed..IME combined with the construction of an environment into which new prop roots cannot become established this dramatically shortens the life span of each of the sections of the original tree/s.

Would suspect very significant cut and fill has occurred around the tree sections, hopefully the nature of sandy alluvial soils (river flood plain) will help the survival of any remaining live roots.

Indian banyans are great survivors spreading over enormous areas if left alone for long enough, regenerating themselves after catastrophic natural events (cyclones, flash floods etc...) but like any tree species they have little capacity to survive the onslaught of death by a thousand cuts typical of our impact on their growing environment.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My entire intention and direction were mocking and sarcastic.

[/ QUOTE ]No Shinola, Sherlock. But yes, by removing declining parts back to concentrations of vitality, new parts are more likely to grow, to replace the old, like the man said.

[/ QUOTE ]
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<font color="blue">Welcome back young man,

Ah. What more could I ask for to continue my lecture of sarcasm about the longevities of dogma/dumb:

Remember my first grousings about watersprouts back in 1990?

Remove water sprouts because they sap the vigor of the tree.” That was the explanation and justification in all of the lists, including the ISA, of “Why We Prune.”

Conceptually, that larger cylinder, attacked by epicormic growth, was being drained by those shoots. In this pontification, an energy/arrow flowed outward from the tree to the sprouts. They were consumers. Bad sprouts. (I actually remember my son saying that when he was little.)

Duh, now some of us understand that the energy flow is really from the photosynthate factories of leaves into the larger woody cylinders. The energy/arrow is actually reversed. Don't talk about reserves, storage or starch--the originators of the original energy molecules were from those leaves. Better understood today, those trees consumed or “sapped” the vigor of the leaves.

Do you agree, Watson?</font>

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…But yes, by removing declining parts back to concentrations of vitality, new parts are more likely to grow, to replace the old, like the man said.


<font color="blue">Oh, oh. Did I hear you and the old man say, concentrations of vitality? Is there another energy/arrow hiding off stage somewhere?

“Declining parts” imply a shrinking or diminishing arrow of energy--true? Now, what fills in the space explaining the consequences of removing declining parts?

Trees don’t always replace parts that are removed; we all know that. And a very common consequence of removing parts, one way or another, is to see an initial flush of new sprouts with big leaves at the site where the energy/arrow has disappeared.

There’s no argument that every woody cylinder is a “concentration” metaphor in words, but it is misleading as a biological reality. Simply because we cut something off that we declare intellectually to be declining doesn’t mean that the tree is going to follow our instructions.

Trees are reiterations of the woody cylinders in various sizes and placements as determined by many forces from the locale, to the genes, to the hormonal percentages and the millions of things we don’t know about yet.</font>
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After 10 years of flogging this nag, I've found that people who prune trees more readily understand this concept (many better than I) than people who do not. If this basic, Shigolicious logic escapes you, prune a few hundred mature trees, watch them for 5 years, then call me in the morning.
santa.gif


<font color="blue"> After 20 years of flipping this gag, I would hope that people who prune trees do understand concepts better than people who don’t. Alex’s logic has never escaped me. He started me in this business. And I absolutely believe in his predictions about the New Arboriculture.</font>

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Of course I agree that this potential treatment is a small part of a sad scenario, where root abuse is the main problem, and if it's not addressed, odds of restoration are not so great.
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<font color="blue"> Did you read any of the text and information about the tree and its religious surroundings? Root abuse is the main problem? Restoration by removal is the solution?

My God, the Mongols tried to destroy it. The Mongols (1206). Apparently, they couldn't kill it at when it was a few thousand years old.

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For me, this poor creature is stuck in a theme park and dying the death of a thousand cults.


Wulkowicz</font>
 

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