2023 Contract Climber Rates?

Everyone has value and wants be be viewed and treated in kind. People are motivated by all sorts of things, some might find self management and collectivism to be very empowering. If people can find a system that they feel values them they can and will accomplish great things. There aren't many options for people who don't want to work in the classic owner/employee setup or run their own show.

A tree workers collective could be a cool thing, I've kicked around the idea for years in different forms.

There are some groups of people who work together around here as subs for one another. People in the traditional model tend to resent that and bring up things like dodging workers comp etc. But these crews are by far more happy and productive then the traditional setups I've worked in. Everyone negotiates their own pay and is their own man. If they don't like the scene they can take their tools and walk anytime.

A lot of people can tell when the boss is full of shit and know he depends on them, a lot of bosses try to motivate people with nonsense like "the business is a family" or "if the business makes more money we can have nicer gear and your job can be easier" etc. When really the arrangement is a basic trade of time for money. Too often the boss acts like the employee owes them for the opportunity to work for them. It's often a predatory and unnecessarily patriarchal setup. When all the cards are on the table most, if not all, workers will feel more dignified.
 
climbhightree said:
I somewhat agree with you, but have a few questions and statements.

As an owner of a tree business, or any business that has high cost equipment, I think I would want some kind of employee buy in to be used towards these costs in a model like you mentioned (or b corp etc). If i am the only one putting out thousands upon thousands of dollars, why shouldnt I be the one making thousands upon thousands profit. High risk to high reward, lower risk to lower reward...but a steady reward as an employee vs sometimes not steady for employer.

So if you bring in a friend/sub to run the ground for you and he brings no other gear (maybe has his own insurance), do you split 50/50 with him? Or if the tree business is paying him directly, should he get the same amount as you? Both make the same profit...because in some ways that is what some of comment say on this thread. If not, how much more profit should you make? How much more profit should the tree business make over you? How much per hour should the business employee make?

Then after that is all added up, is that a fair price for the homeowner to pay to have said tree removed/trimmed...whether they are rich or poor? In my opinion that price should be the same (rich or poor).
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It may seem obvious, but things are the way they are because they were the way they were.

As I wish that I had the money to invest, but my family lost everything when they had to flee Germany in 1939, so we had to start over. My black friends have been systematically kept down for a long time. Same for some Irish guys I know, and don't get me started on the First Nation's people. How do we address how unfair things were for so long, and how much that set up some people to have a much easier time getting to be owners that get more in perpetuity than those that came from nothing?

What's right and what's fair may not be the same thing is all cases, and our challenge now is how do we bring forth an more just and egalitarian society?
 
climbhightree said:
I somewhat agree with you, but have a few questions and statements.

As an owner of a tree business, or any business that has high cost equipment, I think I would want some kind of employee buy in to be used towards these costs in a model like you mentioned (or b corp etc). If i am the only one putting out thousands upon thousands of dollars, why shouldnt I be the one making thousands upon thousands profit. High risk to high reward, lower risk to lower reward...but a steady reward as an employee vs sometimes not steady for employer.

So if you bring in a friend/sub to run the ground for you and he brings no other gear (maybe has his own insurance), do you split 50/50 with him? Or if the tree business is paying him directly, should he get the same amount as you? Both make the same profit...because in some ways that is what some of comment say on this thread. If not, how much more profit should you make? How much more profit should the tree business make over you? How much per hour should the business employee make?

Then after that is all added up, is that a fair price for the homeowner to pay to have said tree removed/trimmed...whether they are rich or poor? In my opinion that price should be the same (rich or poor).
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There's a million ways it could be set up but to me it seems only fair and obvious that rewards/risk/liability should be spread around accordingly.

And I agree on the pricing front. Everyone gets the same price from me, mansion, trailer park, veterans, seniors... it's all the same rate.
 
L3VI said:
A lot of people can tell when the boss is full of shit and know he depends on them, a lot of bosses try to motivate people with nonsense like "the business is a family" or "if the business makes more money we can have nicer gear and your job can be easier" etc. When really the arrangement is a basic trade of time for money. Too often the boss acts like the employee owes them for the opportunity to work for them. It's often a predatory and unnecessarily patriarchal setup. When all the cards are on the table most, if not all, workers will feel more dignified.
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If the boss is full of shit then do better yourself, off you go..

Go to the bank and borrow against your house.
Go and spend the evenings/weekends talking to knobhead clients.
Spend your evenings fixing stuff the guys have broken or paying to fix it.
Wake up to a text saying they're not coming in because…

There’s a bloke on here saying he turns over a million a year with a three man outfit, chipper truck and mini skid.

It’s the land of milk and honey I tells ya!
 
Mick, many folks don't have a house to borrow against or even 2 pennies to rub together. But they still matter as much as the next.

Spending weekends and nights talking to knows and fixing gear sounds like a nightmare.

If the responsibility was spread around maybe blokes wouldn't text in in the morning knowing they had more to loose and more to gain. Or maybe it's okay to miss a day here or there and reschedule because it's just tree work? Just thinking out loud here.

Not saying this is your situation but I've seen it plenty. If a guy calling in sick brings the whole empire to ruin maybe its more just a house of cards.
 
Matias said:
It may seem obvious, but things are the way they are because they were the way they were.

As I wish that I had the money to invest, but my family lost everything when they had to flee Germany in 1939, so we had to start over. My black friends have been systematically kept down for a long time. Same for some Irish guys I know, and don't get me started on the First Nation's people. How do we address how unfair things were for so long, and how much that set up some people to have a much easier time getting to be owners that get more in perpetuity than those that came from nothing?

What's right and what's fair may not be the same thing is all cases, and our challenge now is how do we bring forth an more just and egalitarian society?
Click to expand...
Do you know I came from something? Do you know my background? I've worked since I been in high school...started out at Mcdonalds. I paid my own way through 2 year college with the help of student loans (which I paid off myself as it should be). I bought my employer's tree business and paid him off over time (how i would have preferred to sell my own company actually).

There are tons of stories of people that came from nothing to be millionaries. They did that by hard work, never giving up and not by asking for a handout out. Some failed multiple times before actually succeeding. The past is exactly that, the past. What matters is the here and now and what you do with it. How much effort are you willing to put out to get beyond whatever limitation you feel you have...what sacrifices are you willing to give up for that. Life is a set of choices, you make a bad one it may effect you for your life...and it is no ones falt but your own. Start making good ones. Maybe you won't become hugely rich, but you will be better than the generation before. Then your kids can do the same, if they so desire. Plus, money doesnt make one happy. Ive traveled enough to see that.

Not everyone can be owners. Does everyone have the smarts to do it..it is not only just a money thing (or really a schooling thing either). How many new business fail?
 
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L3VI said:
Mick, many folks don't have a house to borrow against or even 2 pennies to rub together. But they still matter as much as the next.

Spending weekends and nights talking to knows and fixing gear sounds like a nightmare.

If the responsibility was spread around maybe blokes wouldn't text in in the morning knowing they had more to loose and more to gain. Or maybe it's okay to miss a day here or there and reschedule because it's just tree work? Just thinking out loud here.

Not saying this is your situation but I've seen it plenty. If a guy calling in sick brings the whole empire to ruin maybe its more just a house of cards.
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Ok, but why haven’t they got any collateral?
I didn’t have a pot to piss in.
You start by saving up the money you get from your regular climbing job.
Instead of pissing it against the wall you buy a topper, so you can do a few privates at the weekend.
Then as you accrue a few quid you buy other stuff, a couple of years pass and you take the leap, tell your boss to stuff it up his arse and start on your own (or be nice and do some subbing for him)
Borrow money, get trucks chippers etc.
Then you hire a guy, tell us how you feel about giving him a share of your years of hard work and sacrifice cos you’re such a nice guy.
I know I’m coming across as a bit hostile, but seriously, put YOUR balls on the block first.
 
Mick Dempsey said:
Ok, but why haven’t they got any collateral?
I didn’t have a pot to piss in.
You start by saving up the money you get from your regular climbing job.
Instead of pissing it against the wall you buy a topper, so you can do a few privates at the weekend.
Then as you accrue a few quid you buy other stuff, a couple of years pass and you take the leap, tell your boss to stuff it up his arse and start on your own (or be nice and do some subbing for him)
Borrow money, get trucks chippers etc.
Then you hire a guy, tell us how you feel about giving him a share of your years of hard work and sacrifice cos you’re such a nice guy.
I know I’m coming across as a bit hostile, but seriously, put YOUR balls on the block first.
Click to expand...
Mick, I work for myself, I hang my ass AND my balls out every day!
 
climbhightree said:
Do you know I came from something? Do you know my background? I've worked since I been in high school...started out at Mcdonalds. I paid my own way through 2 year college with the help of student loans (which I paid off myself as it should be). I bought my employer's tree business and paid him off over time (how i would have preferred to sell my own company actually).

There are tons of stories of people that came from nothing to be millionaries. They did that by hard work, never giving up and not by asking for a handout out. Some failed multiple times before actually succeeding. The past is exactly that, the past. What matter is the here and now and what you do with it. How much effort are you willing to put out to get beyond whatever limitation you feel you have...what sacrifices are you willing to give up for that. Life is a set of choices, you make a bad one it may effect you for your life...and it is no ones falt but your own. Start making good ones. Maybe you won't become hugely rich, but you will be better than the generation before. Then your kids can do the same, if they so desire. Plus, money doesnt make one happy. Ive traveled enough to see that.

Not everyone can be owners. Does everyone have the smarts to do it..not only just a money thing. How many new business fail?
Click to expand...
I’ll second what you’re saying. I started the hard way, though not at McDonald’s, when I was 14 I rented my grandfather’s mower and started cutting lawns in the neighborhood. Saved every penny and bought a riding mower of my own, then saved some more for a worn out 20 year old pickup truck and spent a couple months making it roadworthy again.

That led to me hiring my first employee when I was 17, and I kept saving and building from there. Rented part of a driveway from a neighbor to park a truck, rented a shed from another neighbor to store my mowers.

After a few years of that, and living on a really tight budget, I bought a house, saved some more, and built a shop. Eventually bought a second business, and then sold off and gave away both, and kept just the tree equipment. It’s taken 20 years to get where I am, but I’m getting there, slowly.

My story is simple though, and I had a great start compared to my grandfather. His parents sold him and his twin brother to a chicken farmer, who made them live with the chickens. He ran away, found another farmer to take him in, and worked his way up to his position as the factory manager of a large manufacturing company, all with less than a 6th grade education.

Can you get ahead in this country, without being privileged or given anything? Yes. It’s hard, will require a lot of work, far more than you may expect, but it can be done, and many have done it. Look where Andrew Carnegie started, or J. D. Rockefeller, and where they went.
 
climbhightree said:
Do you know I came from something? Do you know my background? I've worked since I been in high school...started out at Mcdonalds. I paid my own way through 2 year college with the help of student loans (which I paid off myself as it should be). I bought my employer's tree business and paid him off over time (how i would have preferred to sell my own company actually).

There are tons of stories of people that came from nothing to be millionaries. They did that by hard work, never giving up and not by asking for a handout out. Some failed multiple times before actually succeeding. The past is exactly that, the past. What matters is the here and now and what you do with it. How much effort are you willing to put out to get beyond whatever limitation you feel you have...what sacrifices are you willing to give up for that. Life is a set of choices, you make a bad one it may effect you for your life...and it is no ones falt but your own. Start making good ones. Maybe you won't become hugely rich, but you will be better than the generation before. Then your kids can do the same, if they so desire. Plus, money doesnt make one happy. Ive traveled enough to see that.

Not everyone can be owners. Does everyone have the smarts to do it..it is not only just a money thing (or really a schooling thing either). How many new business fail?
Click to expand...
Did you go to a bank and get a business loan to purchase your employers tree business, or did you work out a deal with him?
 
Even if one starts from something

Generational Wealth: Why do 70% of Families Lose Their Wealth in the 2nd Generation?​


"If all it took was knowledge to become wealthy, then most business people, professors, financial planners and others would be very wealthy. The reason they’re not is because becoming wealthy requires a lot more than knowledge. It requires hard work, discipline, sacrifice and many other traits that are very hard to teach and pass on.

The generation that earns the wealth is the generation that worked and experienced hardships to make sure they achieve something better for themselves. They work hard and diligently save to achieve their goals. Their efforts pay off and by the time they are ready to retire and live comfortably, with assets to pass on. The next generation, while growing up, sees their parent's struggles and have a good understanding of the value of sacrifice and hard work. While they may be more comfortable as adults, they can still remember the frugal aspects of their lives growing up. Since they are aware, they make better decisions surrounding education and financial choices enabling them to build on the foundation given to them by their parents. The third generation never realizes the struggles and sacrifices the previous generations endured. The only thing they know if a life of plenty and have a real lack of understanding of what is needed to create and maintain the lifestyle they have grown accustom to.
It is estimated that 70% of wealthy families will lose their wealth by the second generation and 90% will lose it by the third. There are a variety of reasons why this happens:

  • Generations are taught not to talk about money
  • The prior generations worry that the next generation will become lazy and entitled
  • Many have no clue about the value of money or how to handle it"
 
rico said:
Did you go to a bank and get a business loan to purchase your employers tree business, or did you work out a deal with him?
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I paid my former boss monthly for a few years for his customer list, and rented his chipper for awhile. Yes, later I got loans from banks to get additional equipment using my good credit from paying my bills and not over extending myself...and then collateral of stuff I had already paid off
 
Social capital is "the networks of relationships among people who live and work in a particular society, enabling that society to function effectively".[1] It involves the effective functioning of social groups through interpersonal relationships, a shared sense of identity, a shared understanding, shared norms, shared values, trust, cooperation, and reciprocity. Social capital is a measure of the value of resources, both tangible (e.g., public spaces, private property) and intangible (e.g., actors, human capital, people), and the impact that ideal creators have on the resources involved in each relationship, and on larger groups. Some have described it as a form of capital that produces public goods for a common purpose, although this does not align with how it has been measured.

Social capital has been used to explain the improved performance of diverse groups, the growth of entrepreneurial firms, superior managerial performance, enhanced supply chain relations, the value derived from strategic alliances, and the evolution of communities.
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Social capital - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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