Your thoughts please!

My thoughts exactly guymayor, on the pruning. A little crown raising over the house and branch reduction and very selective thinning can go a loooong way.

A few things to consider Cory.
1) what is the orientation of the tree on the site. Will removing half the tree expose once shaded trunk to warming winter sun resulting in sun scald which in turn will lead to further stress on the tree?

2) From a recent take down of a dead white oak that had a large limb (12"-14" diameter) that was cut off seven years or more ago there was surprisingly little decay in the trunk wood despite the open cavity where the limb was cut. I had expected to see a large column of decay extending into the trunk but there was none. I took from that that white oak is a strong compartmentalizer.

3) If your gut tells you it is the wrong thing to do for the tree find some alternative (explain how traumatic it will be for the tree to cut half of its food production off all at once).

perhaps this is something that should be managed over time.

Then back to reality: The client is elderly and just wants her damn tree cut and by golly she will get somebody to do what she wants. bedamned the tree.!

Still worth trying to find the common ground and educate your client on the benefits of mature, healthy trees in the urban forest.
 
Just a thought here, but what a chemical treatment?
I know there are products that can be sprayed onto a tree to prevent fruiting......
Im no chem expert(far from one truthfully), I know its not realistic to spray an 80 foot tall tree, but is there any sort of systemic product that will inhibit fruiting?
and if so, would it work on an oak?
Does cambistat have any anti fruiting abilities?

Again, Im talking out my arse here, but just trying to explore other potential options.
 
My thoughts exactly Treegazer! just not as eloquently thought out. There is a tree I've been watching since an 18-24" scaffold limb was removed on a main thoroughfare (eastern parkway) I'll be in the neighborhood tomorrow and will take and post a picture for you to help with your decision. Get paid to prune it more than once. I think removing that much of the tree will euthanize it. Once we cut down the biggest cottonwood (very healthy) in a neighborhood because the guy was tired of raking leaves. He could have paid someone to do it for 15-20 years for what it cost to remove it.
Forgot my camera today.....anyway, the tree I wanted to photograph is dying...and now poses a threat to the Parkway
 
Hmmm... maybe some type of PGR (plant growth regulator)? I know GA (giberellic acid) inhibsit flower bud induction in some species, but this could just lead to overall thinning with fewer number of acorns, but larger acorns? Maybe someone else here knows of a better PGR for this application?

Sounds like wrong tree, wrong place. Personally, I would much rather try to convince the client to remove the entire tree, than half the tree... any day. I like the idea of using the money she would have spent on removal for gutter cleaning...

jp
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I would only quote on thinning and reduction. If she wanted half of the tree cut off as described I would just tell her I don't do work like that because of the liability......and because I would be ashamed to abuse a tree in that manner.

I would give her a quote on a whole removal, too.
 
As noted before White Oaks are extreamly good at compartmentalizing (part of what makes them more resiliant in the face of Oak Wilt)
As far as a straight forward answer... You know the answer.
No it isn't good for the tree, it probally won't look very good when you are done, and you will assume some liability. On the other hand doing the job means making the money, keeps the tree up for maybe another ten years, and when it has to be removed, your name will probally be on the top of the list. You know how it is, make the desicion based on what is right for you.
 
It's really sad when people want you to remove or trim their beautiful healthy trees because they are tired of raking leaves or acorns dropping on rooftops. Try to convince them of the benefits of healthy trees and remind them of how many trees get removed because they are sick/dangerous or because they are in the way of new housing.
 
Like a doctor; it is your duty to drag your butt, lead to the light, offer insight and options; and sometimes outrightly turn down the work.

On the other hand; you can't do that so much as to put yourself out of business; and there'd be less so concerned tree services in your area by ratio. Kinda my "even a friendly concentration camp guard had to fry a few to save more" theory.
 
Absolutely excellent discussion and points made here, thank you all for your insight and perspectives.

I'll try to get some pics.

I haven't made up my mind completely yet on what approach to take, but having aired my questions here on TB, I have more confidence in the situation.

I'll let you know the outcome. Next step is go back and look one more time.
 
[ QUOTE ]

I'll let you know the outcome. Next step is go back and look one more time.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe one option is to quote on sending a groundie with a rake and a blower once a week during acorn season?

And attach some info on the economic value of the tree to the next buyer--cooling power, wildlife, aesthetics...
 
ory as a half reduction pruning is a no no. I turned down a job for my nieghbors that wanted a me to remove a mian lead do to walnuts. In turn a smaller comp. came in and did the job, and the nieghbors just laughed at me saying hahahahaha see it can be done ya just have to find the right ppl. Yesterday a staedy wind that had some gusts in it took the othe half down across their shed.I didnt laugh I just walked over and lent my saw and my services for about 20 mins and 50$ to get it outta the way of the driveway and walked away.
Taking a main lead out weakkens the tree the side that blocked the wind was now gone and the side that was weaker took the brunt force of the gusts.
There are PGRs out there to help in fruit reduction look them up.
Nate
 
Or....

Try and convince her to keep the healthy tree and sell the fact that she could pay you to come remove the acorns from the tree each year before they fall. Wouldn't that be a sweet job???


I would look into PGRs if possible. But, like somebody said, there are a hundred companies that will do exactly what she wants done.
 
Is this your business or a side job?

If it's your business then how does a job like this fit with your business plan? Do you want to be known for doing anything, or for high level care and professionalism? Are you into mutilation or not so much?

I've taken some crap jobs to float my company but not tree mutilation (mine tend to be excavator assembled brush piles )but I have a relative that claims "they're just trees man!" and he'll top anything.

What do YOU want to promote YOUR reputation for?
 
It' 24/7 business. I think this job fits with my biz plan provided its going to satisfy the clients goal and leave a safe situation in both the short and long term. I hope that I am seen as a professional and indeed I always try to do high quality work and give advice based on experience and education. I don't think the look of this tree will be a major problem given the context of why the job was done. To characterize it as tree mutilation I think could be presumptious and narrow minded, IMHO. Not at all trying to diminish your opinion though,Mangoes. I appreciate your taking the time to post and offering a challenge to excel. But is a wide view being taken or is it more a focus soley on what is theoretically best for a tree from an elite arb's point of view?

For example,what if the tree could talk, would it say "if either half of me or else all of me has to be removed, take all of me"?? Or the birds: "We'll only perch, feed, nest, and sing in a whole tree, half trees should just be eliminated..!" We don't know what they would say but I think if the clients goal is met and the tree remains an asset to its micro environment and the environment as a whole, then good has been done.

Btw, I won't do excavator assembled brush piles cuz the customers never want to ante up for T and M for new knives and anvil. And if you do one, they will feel free next time to again nuke more trees with the excavator and make another brutal mess instead of doing it right and calling you first to cut the trees.

Re: your notion of the overall direction and essence of one's buisness, I've always thought there are 3 components to owner operating a tree biz: 1.Physically survive ,2.Financially survive, 3.Do quality work.
 
[ QUOTE ]
All the above. If the goal is reducing nuts, why not just reduce and thin?

[/ QUOTE ]

That reminds me of people telling me they want less leaves, and to cut the height down by 1/3. So when I find that height is not objectionable, they seem satisfied to raise the canopy a bit and lightly thin to remove about 1/3 of the leaves.

Who knows, the lady might not object to the idea of much fewer acorns.

We had tons of acorns this year ourselves. I almost didn't hear any hit the cover to our patio last year.

This year, I sat in my office at the end with the oak over, and heard an acorn landing about every 5 minutes for like a month.
 
Cory,

Fair enough. I posed questions that were to inspire direction and focus, not arguement. I can see both perspectives.

Possibly you or someone else reading had not thought about how service or style of service would be impacted by a business plan, I didn't at first.

Currently our focus (not yet reality) is to grow towards care only with limited focus on removals. Pruning about 50% Soils 30%(15% fert/inj. organics 10%mulch 5% rad. tr.) 15% Consulting and 5% removals is my goal.......can only make money off a removal once.

Again no arguement here. Just impartial questions for focus and direction, as much for me to understand your situation as for maybe helping you consider this situation's impact on you.

I may have offended with the 'high level care' comment. Let me explain...I had in mind as I typed a friend's company. They do not do tree removal. The do very high end pruning and root care with a focus on doing little harm to a tree. That is what I have in mind as high end.

I am not an elite Arborist at all.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this job fits with my biz plan provided its going to satisfy the clients goal and leave a safe situation in both the short and long term.

[/ QUOTE ]

You answered the questions for me and for you. No worries
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Got it, Mangoes. Well said.

No offence at all re "high level."

BTW by "elite" I didn't mean elitist as in snooty or snobby, I meant elite, as in high order or as in a specialist.
 
Cory,

The way that I got clients to understand pruning dosage is to use the metaphor of the leaves being the food factories. If half of the factory production is gone what happens? You already know. Now, take the metaphor further. Not only are you about to shut down half of the factory production lines you're going to tear a huge hole in the side of the factory but cutting off one whole leader. What protection is left for the rest of the food production lines? Pretty vulnerable to weather and other factors that will compromise the remaining production lines.

Sure, leaves and seeds are an annoyance. That is part of the 'friction' in the process. How can we reduce the friction? Or, can we tolerate some friction in the machine? It took me a long time to develop a sales pitch for my clients to understand that some friction is acceptable. No one gets rid of a vehicle when it only needs new tires. Same logic applies to trees.

There are many paths that will lead to the solution. Removal or half removal would be my last choice if the tree has no other compromising factors.

You wrote:

1.Physically survive ,2.Financially survive, 3.Do quality work.

For years I followed that order. Then, after taking Dr. Shigo's challenge, I changed #2 and #3. Finding this solution made me a more successful arbo and made me more money too. It also solved #1 too because I quit doing needless removals and changed them into trim jobs.
 
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