Working on SRT system

As I thought. Thanks for confirming that you have no suggestions.

Are you climbing trees yet, or just telephone poles still?
Funny how much you know and the authority with which you claim my setup will fail, yet you have little to no practical knowledge.

As far as 'playing'- Yes I climb recreationally as well as for a living. I practice new techniques on my own time so I can use them with confidence when on the job. Been using SRT to enter large trees for over a year now and I have not seen anybody else with a simpler, easier or safer system. No setup will be 100% perfect but I am much more comfortable with my setup than the setup you use. Oh yeah, you don't actually USE a SRT system, do you?
 
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If you can't carry on a decent conversation with me then don't bother asking me questions

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Tom,
I disagree.
I can't see where a properly tied advanced hitch would fail on srt.
Has it ever happened?

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First you claim a VT hitch is bombproof, then in your next post you again disagree and claim it is destined to fail. What setup would you actually agree with? Or are you just disagreeing with everybody in order to sound smart? For a long time I thought you had something to offer but it seems like you only disagree with everybody in a smooth manner. Yes, I can be very harsh. But I usually try to contribute solutions rather than simply claiming 'that is unsafe'.
 
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But I usually try to contribute solutions

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You should have stopped there.
We finally get a good topic rolling here and you want to start a pissing contest.
What I'm interested in is people making useful contributions that benefit myself and others.

What I see in Toms set up looks good but the handled ascender is nice to pull yourself up with.
What I am suggesting is an alternative with a handled ascender.
In my opinion it is safer to have the hitch above a handled ascender.
Above or below would probably suffice if the spread between the two was kept reasonably large, but my preference is still above.
If you feel it is unsafe, tell me why?
I'm suggesting to you that your method isn't as safe because once you have advanced your lower body the hitch and the handled ascenders are very close in proximity and if the handled ascender fails at that moment you could easily drive it into the top of your hitch.
 
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I'm suggesting to you that your method isn't as safe because once you have advanced your lower body the hitch and the handled ascenders are very close in proximity and if the handled ascender fails at that moment you could easily drive it into the top of your hitch.

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OK, and then what? Follow that thought process for one more second. I've told you what I discovered when I tried to cause a failure as you describe. I was unable to cause failure for more than a fraction of a second nor for more than a few inches of drop.

What did you discover when you tested it? You are telling me my method isn't safe based on your guesses. I'm not letting this go because you are basically claiming your guesses and assumptions are more valid than my testing and personal experience.

As stated earlier, I do not like having one of my two attachment points beyond my reach. A friction hitch riding above your ascender may need dressing once in a while, especially after it has been in the open, released state for a while. Depending on your cord the hitch most likely won't even grab if the ascender were to fail. Whatever might jam the ascender has already jammed the friction hitch first.

With the hitch attached to the saddle D ring, it is in the standard working position and an experienced climber should be able to instinctively grab and secure his hitch without even thinking about it. Not to mention the faster, more efficient changeover to DdRT once at the top of the ascent.
 
What if you started out, ascender high, friction hitch at waist; then put another chord in above ascender, connected to top hole of ascender (for clipping to line).

So, that the ascender tended the friction hitch upward, yet if ascender slipped etc., the friction hitch would catch it?
 
Brian;
You're right.
I don't climb with the hitch below only because I know my hitch releases when I force down on it, that's how I descend.
The only way to properly test that would be repeatedly on belay I would think.
In your favour, would be the safety aspect of cutting free from the upper ascender and dropping on the lower hitch.
How does Tom descend when he gets into trouble and is secured with two mechanical ascenders?
I haven't completed any tests and have no results to offer, it's just my opinion on the matter, what I have used and what gives me piece of mind when working off a rope.

Spyder, that's a good alternative, although it might be a little overkill it is safe.

I'd like to try that. Thanks for the idea.
 
I can see a good use for both types of systems. When I SRT with a climbing system (so that a rappel can occur with one "un-clip" at any moment) I use a VT to back everything. This means that I place it above my handled ascender.

When I am simply ascending, I use three mechanical ascenders. This puts me at a higher risk due to longer change-over time to rappel, but is much more efficient for ascending. The trade off is present. However, when the situation calls for a long ascent (like the 250' ascent into the Tree House) it almost feels neccessary.

The more ideas and disputes that we can come up with, the better. It will help us to learn and grow. Keep 'em comin'!
 
I am not very comfortable with a hitch above my handled ascender, I tried it a few times and just do'nt like it. I use a micro grab above my handled ascender and that seems to advance just as smooth as the hitch. In the bottom hole of the handled acsender is a quick link with a harkin pully that will pass my splice and a lanyard that goes to my harness.I also back up the link to the micro acsender with a cord. I really like to work right off of that without having to convert from acsent to desent. In larger trees I may need to re-tie into another part of the tree that is why I use the pulley (my splice with exra whipping to retrieve rope guide) runs through it. I am not comfortable acsending staticlly. If one did become incapasitated a static ascent would make for a very difficult rescue
 
Here's a link to the article that I wrote last year for TCI:

http://www.natlarb.com/content/pubs/September%202002%20TCI%20-%20Single%20Rope%20Technique.htm

In a nutshell, my access/work line is three times longer than the highest TIP that I might use. The line is anchored and run through a belay device like a rack or Gri Gri. The rope is then locked off to eliminate any chance of the rope getting snagged by brush.

In the case of an emergency the climber can be lowered from any point in the tree without sending another climber off the ground.

I solicit critical input for this system. If there are any short comings, please point them out. If something doesn't make sense, ask questions.

I've just thought of a different solution for ascending once I transfer to a working system using the I'd. The solution is a variation on the RADS system but I'll use a Ropeman with a pulley below it. This will be very compact and easy to attach and de-rig.

Tom
 
I have to work alone (usually), that's just the way it is.
I need a safe ascent system and a failsafe descent system.
I can't depend on anyone to be there in an emergency situation.
I try to stay away from mechanical ascenders due to wear and tear on dynamic rope and now use static rope with mechanical ascenders for that reason.
A seperate mechanical ascender such as the microcender above and connected to the handled ascender might be the way to go with a hitch below both.
 
CT,

I try to stay away from mechanical ascenders due to wear and tear on dynamic rope and now use static rope with
mechanical ascenders for that reason.

Using ascenders that are made for the diameter rope you're using will reduce picking. Also, using handled ascenders with an aggresive tooth, like Petzl and Kong, will lead to picking. Try using a shelld,camming style ascender.
 
I agree with you there Mark I always back up over the top when using SRT but I back up with Helical double fisherman"ed" Through the Crab hole in the top goes on quick comes off quick and you can leave the length of prussik rope on the the accender all the time,,,

Didj
 
Tod,

I can undestand that you don't like it. There are things that I don't like that others feel are the BEST way to do.... I just see one thing in your post that stands out to me. I see that you back your system with a cord to the top cam, but I still don't like the idea of tying your climbing system into a pulley in the bottom hole of the ascender. I would (and do) clip the pulley into the top hole of the ascender. This way you are not loading the handle and you positively capture the ascent rope. Just something that frightens me a bit.
 
So by using a microscender above handled ascender rather than using a hitch, you should save drag, and have a smoother ascent, while still being backed up there. V.T. at the waist, the best of both. I like having a hitch there which i can descend upon if things went wrong. I don't know if possibly my connecting cord to my handled ascender is too long ( i don't think so), problem is the hitch above my ascender is out of reach to be descending on? So you lose the benefit of this, by having the hitch at the waste you can get both of the benefits, the back up and descent.
If using the Harken block, connected to the handled ascender at the top connection point, then where are you connecting, the hitch or microscender to? I've heard before the load rating on the petzl ascender is rated through the top connection not the bottom, is this the reason to not connect to the bottom? The rope should be captured anyway, if you connect the prusik above the the top holes? Any clarification?
 
The Petzl website says that their handled ascender is rated for 15KN on the small bottom hole and 20KN for the large hole. I would tend to think that this would be pretty close to the strength of the upper portion, so I can understand using it provided you are backing it up in some fashion.

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I like having a hitch there which i can descend upon if things went wrong

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The way I described (and Tod did also) you are tied into a standard climbing system as well, so you could easily descend at any given time. You really have no need to unload the back-up or release the ascender. Just abandon it.
 
Tom, you bought the I'd, right?
Could we get a quick review?

I finally understood the point of leaving the upper ascender
in the RAD system when limb walking.
If you're sure to return to the point where you left it,
you get a nice 3:1 MA with very little friction and
automatic slack tending!
 
Oskar,

I haven't bought an I'd yet but I've worked off of one. It is a bit clunky but that's the price paid to have it function well. I like the panic stop function. If the lever is pulled too far, it locks off. If the climber let's go, it locks off. Tailing slack back through the tool is a little harder than through the Lock Jack or a well tuned friction hitch. BUT!!! This is a 1:1 system so I only have to pull half as much rope. As long as the effort to pull slack isn't twice as hard, I'm ahead. The speed saving in not having to tail rope is a big plus in working SRT. The I'd can be rigged and removed from the rope without taking it off the saddle. The flip latch needs to be visualized after every use. In caving, there have been falls because people haven't checked the flip-latch on the bobbin [Stop-type] descenders.

Balancing the function and safety features of the I'd make me a fan. There are other tools to use but they all have shortcomings. For a while I used a Gri-Gri but that doesn't have the panic grab. If you use an I'd be sure that you use the one made for the rope you're using. They come in two sizes.

With the RADS the MA is between 2:1 and 3:1 depending on some variables. When I set up the climbing system for Pattie Jenkins on the Moonlight Majesty climb I put in the RADS but also set a throwline up near the TIP. The throwline was attached to the top of the upper ascender. Pattie could pull herself up until the system collapses, then sit and pull the upper with the throwline. The climber has to be careful not to get the upper too far above or they will run out of rope on the standing or working leg of the rope. If the climber were to descend and then want to go back up, they might run out of rope because of the three lengths used.

Tom
 
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