With all the new climbing systems!

sohner

sohner

Location
Northern California
Today I got a call from a climber who was for the first time trying a single line rope climbing system that he (learned) at the TCIA EXPO show in Hartford.
The problem for him began when he was up on the rope several feet and became exhausted and realized that he was not going to be able to go up the rest of the way into the tree. At this point he decided to try and unhook from the system he had employed and unfortunately for him he then dropped to the ground incurring injury.

My biggest concern is the folks who demonstrate the techniques are quite familiar with the method and make it look to easy for the common user and that is where the trouble starts. Folks don't get much proper training in some of these single line techniques and get panicked and get trapped.

What could be an excepable stradegy for getting down the line if your in trouble?

Most of the systems are set up to go up, not come down necessarily.

I might consider a prusick loop and a figure eight device for emergency and for first timers. Being up on a rope several feet off the groud is know place for panic to set in.
 
That's very true but some of the newer SRT thingamajigs are good at going up or down. I'm not advocating SRT, I prefer DdRT even then, when I ascend by footlocking I'm in a similar situation.

I think what you're driving at though is that people get introduced to cool new stuff without necessarily getting training or even clear cut instructions to use it.

I'm sure Tom could give you a good way to get down from a typical SRT ascent. My guess is you could use a friction knot with hi-temp cord as your ascender backup and if you had to descend you could add a figure 8 below everything, step up and release the ascender and then lower using the knot and the 8 together.

For the kind of work I do and the trees I usually work in, I haven't found an advantage to SRT. I don't really see a compelling reason to use it assuming the climber footlocks the doubled rope on the initial ascent. Maybe when my knees give out I'll see it differently.
 
diddo, figure 8 or hms for munter is essential even if you've done it a million times. at least some kind of descender. you never know when you might need to come down in a (controled) hurry!
 
I have this strange feeling Tom will recommend using an I'd or a trango or some such device
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I've been looking at different SRT systems, and have put in a request to have the place I'm working at right now buy a Frog system. Problem is many of these trees are in the 75-100ft ++ range and that is just too far outside the realm of footlocking, at least for me. Any recommendations on getting started?

jp
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Problem is many of these trees are in the 75-100ft ++ range and that is just too far outside the realm of footlocking, at least for me. Any recommendations on getting started?

jp
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If you have to set TIPS from the ground over 70' then SRT makes more sense. Have you tried footlocking on ascenders with a short tether so you can rest?
 
You really need to be going SRT on those albizias Jon. Even just an ascender (with backup!), a footloop and a pantin will make it sooo much easier. Floating false crotches are also really useful with those trees because sometimes you don't need to ascend all the way to your TIP to do your work, and it would be wasted energy to go all the way there only to set your TIP and then descend to do your work.

My first SRT setup was just an ascender and a pantin. The gear craziness started from there. If you can get someone to spring for the TreeFrog setup then I guarantee you'll be a happy camper once you get it all dialed in. You'll be walking up the rope!
 
this is a case where the climber didn't practice the first axiom of any new climbing technique.

LOW AND SLOW

The second axiom of climbing seems to have been overlooked too. Where was the second climber/belayer/helper?

In all SRT setups the climber should have the anchor setup for a rescue. This is one, if not the biggest advantage of SRT. A built-in escape route.

Instead of setting a line and hiking up away from the firm control of gravity the climber should have practiced while firmly on the ground. Doing changeovers from ascent to descent [a/d] can be worked out with only gentle back leaning on the rope. this is what I teach everyone.

I hope that the climber wasn't hurt seriously and will be back in the trees quickly.

The SRT systems that I use all have built-in descent modes. Changing from ascent to descent will keep the climber connected at all times.

Either RADS using an Eddy for a/d is the basis for one system. the other is using a Unicender in a Treefrog setup.

Demos at conferences should NEVER be considered training. If a person doesn't take the time to learn the details of how to use the latest office software program, cabling system, bucket truck operation, SRT climbing technique who's to blame?
 
tom, any links on the rads setup you can provide? pics? vids?

i love useing srt, its quick and almost effortless and in no time you are high in the sky making your first cuts but it did take some time to work out the kinks and im still not very comfortable on mechanical devices, im hoping that fear will eventually turn into more of a respect thing after a while
 
i think that Tom said it write, and also that his system for retrievable SRT would be the thing to guard off such a problem earlier in the steep grade of the L-earning curve. In short, they shouldn't be swimming alone.


But, also, inline force and leg power is my answer too. Any non-inline force is a multiplier of that force. Thus, chest rollers etc. keep a man's CG close to the rope. For, the farther he leans away from the rope, the more leveraged load he carries/ the more energy it takes. Also, the less directly that energy is applied to the target IMLHO. So, if your friend can keep himself closer and more pairallell to the rope; there will be much less fatigue. Though the first degree of lean here is the least amount of total leverage; it is the most amount of increase/ so the most payoff to polish out and due correctly. The second degree of lean back from inline; is more total leverage; but just slightly less increase from the increase of from Zer0 degrees deflection to 1 degree etc.

i prefer a 2 handed Kong + Pantin. Then; i drop a 4' rigging sling from the Kong to the non-Pantin foot. The Kong helps with the inline force theory in that when you lift with arms it pulls you to rope. The sling on Kong gets both feet into it; for more leg.

But, it is all a retraining of body and mind; perhaps using muscles differently; and l-earning the most efficient orchestration of devises and efforts.
 
When i go up on SRT i use a grigri to come back down on or work some of the lowers limbs with. I'll hook the grigri up while im still attached and then load it like my VT. work a few of the lower limbs i can easily reach and leave my SRT gear on the line where i left off. come back to it and hook back in and keep going up to swtich over to DbDT style.

I'm also with you familytree with not trusting the entire system all the time. I throw a back up kliemhiest above my hand ascender when im going up for that add comfort i know it will catch if one of my ascenders come off.
 
I have been using the lower kit for the Mar Bars and absolutely love it. I have been using a footlocking prussik until now. I do have the double rope Kong hand ascender.

The question I have is that on the Mar Bars system, the Sherrill catalog says that when used together (the upper and lower mar bars kit) they meet ANSI standards. I was wondering if the Kong ascender will also meet this?
 
well the way i understand it is that you have to have a full point on the rope at any time. a Grigri is one point, a hand ascender is a half a point the croll is a half point and the patin is noting cause you don't want to be hanging from it, if everything else fails. Thats for the treefrog system i use. The point system makes sure you have one ascender on the rope if one of them fails, so there is always something there backing it up.

So in theory the upper mars bars is a half a point and the lower should be a half point. or...maybe nothing. I'm not sure i would want to hang upside downs from the lower bars.

Does that system use a fiction hitch in the middle for the back-up?
 
Jman,

Where did you get the half point thing from?

GG, any ascender including a chest ascender counts just the same as any friction hitch as a point of attachment.

Pantin doesn't though for obvious reasons.

Think through the whole concept of backing up ascenders very carefully. Substitute friction hitches into your thoughts. Does anyone backup friction hitches? They are just as susceptible to failure as mechanical devices.

There are many 'backup' systems that I doubt would really be backups if they were put to critical testing. Arbos must look outside of the trees and see how the rest of the rope access world uses the tools.

Familytree,

There are pics on TB of my RADS setup. Look for pics from Laz also. We both use similar setups.

The main difference is using an Eddy instead of a GriGri. The Eddy is far superior in my opinion.
 
RADS = ?
Eddy = ?

I'm not 100% familiar with the abbreviation.

My foreman told me the half point concept. I'll ask him Tuesday where he got it from but he went to arborist school in Canada for two years and has a good amount of training in the field. Might be something from CAS not ANSI.

I load up the klemhiest before I put the rest of the system together to make sure its going to hold me. I've had it not hold half way up a footlock and had to slide down with the rope locked out in my feet. Lucky I was only 15-120 from the ground.

Is the klemhiest not suitable for a back up to my entire system? Does it not load on a sudden shock load? And if the klemhiest is not suitable what should i use?
 
ohh ok I have seen the RADS system before but just didn't put two and tow together. ?Doesn't look as easy at the frog system. ?The one nice thing about it is the descending with out having to change a lot of gear
 
Jman,

If a 'backup' failed once you should know exactly why it failed and make a change. The next time it fails may be your last.

How do you configure your system? A pic or good description will help.
 
I'll start from the top down with a discription.

First I put my Klemhiest and attach that to my harness for my back-up

Then my hand acscender with a foot loop on it, which is also attached to my harness with ANSI rated cord.

Under that is the Croll with an oval link with rated cord as well. A loop around my neck to keep it up right and that is also attached to my harness.

After that is the pantin.

After that little mishap I did find out why it didn't set. The wraps on the klemhiest rolled out a little bit and it didn't bite. My forman came over to check the knot before I went up and altered it from what I had orginaly set so it wasn't dressed all the way. Now I sit in my knot before going up and let no one touch my setup before going up and always re check it if they do. I know he meant no harm but undressing the knot by accident will cause one.
 
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