Why?

Anyway IMO the op should buy a pick up and do a bit of his own stuff,
He can earn more that way and choose his jobs to suit his early finishes.
It can't be that complicated to run a small business in the US.
 
Good post by Guy above.

Want to do pruning only? "Well, I want a toilet made of solid gold but it's just not in the cards baby. YEAH!" <---to be said in Austin Powers voice

I've always wanted to have a business pruning just ornamentals. Crepemyrtles, redbuds, japanese maples, etc. Now I'm pretty sure it would never work. There's not enough of it to survive and you'd be turning down so much other work.
 
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[ QUOTE ]
I cringe when religious folks share their opinions as fact.



[/ QUOTE ]

Well, to those religious folks, it is fact.

It's like if a homeowner wrote on a forum that trees are not living things. You would have a hard time not responding to that and telling them that you believe that a tree is truly a living organism. That is fact to you, right? Well so is God to those that believe, it is fact and they know the benefit and strength a person gets from that. That is why it's sad when they read about a person that does not believe that God is real and can help their life.

To the thread topic: That's a hard spot to be in, I can definitely see why you would stay. your son and providing for your two person family is number one.

Matt that works with me; before he came to arbor-x, he worked for another tree company. In short, the owner told him to top a tree one day. Matt said that it wasn't right and he didn't want to do it. The owner insisted. Matt didn't do it. Quit the job and walked home. Then enrolled in a forestry college, graduated and came to Arbor-X where he will never be asked to top a tree.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I cringe when religious folks share their opinions as fact.



[/ QUOTE ]

Well, to those religious folks, it is fact.

It's like if a homeowner wrote on a forum that trees are not living things. You would have a hard time not responding to that and telling them that you believe that a tree is truly a living organism. That is fact to you, right? Well so is God to those that believe, it is fact and they know the benefit and strength a person gets from that. That is why it's sad when they read about a person that does not believe that God is real and can help their life.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me it's a fact that the virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection fable exists in hundreds of stories throughout history and Christ is no more real than Dionysus or Aslan.That there is no actual physical evidence that a man by that name ever walked the planet. Now, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that that might offend someone out there. Well I am offended on a near daily basis by the saturation of major religions in all aspects of my life. It's even on the money in my pocket. I can only hold my tongue so often.

My issue is that I shared my opinion on the interest of god in our day to day lives, after someone else shared theirs. It is my OPINION that there in no higher power aloft, watching the minutiae of anyones existence. That opinion was met with a comment intended to invalidate it, thru the statement of another OPINION as fact. I realize that religion is something that people hold very sacred. My non belief is something I hold very sacred as well. It shapes me as an individual. I do not start conversations about my beliefs in public settings, but I will not shy away and try not to offend people by not participating. My belief that all religion is mythology (except scientology, which is a business) is just as valid as someone else's belief that Jesus died for their sins.

There are no facts which prove or disprove the existence of a divine power. There are many facts which prove the life of trees, if someone displayed a disbelief in those FACTS I am not sure I would even bother having further conversation. Though I do sometimes have a hard time shutting my mouth in a public forum.

I do agree with you on the thread topic however David, that there are many ways to deal with the situation while looking out for what is most important, his family.
 
Just so you know Mac I respect your opinion very much and you haven't offended me in any way. My cringe was cause I care about ya brother, nothing else. As far as keeping our mouths shut I'm in total agreement. Be either hot or cold, not lukewarm.

I tried to PM David (X) to say I appreciated his post but sending him a PM is impossible as we all know
grin.gif


So how about topping trees? Shame isn't it?
 
Wow, a civil discussion of opposing views! Thank you.

Back to the conversation.

TL, It all depends on the rationale given by the client. What is the outcome they are hoping to achieve? It's not that the tree is too tall, that's their perception. Is it a feeling of security, vertigo, or just plain lack of understanding? What are they really asking for? From that, one can then tackle the "topping" issue and direct the conversation to proper pruning techniques.

Right tree, right place. While the tree in question might have been there before the client it may now be in the wrong place. We've struggled with this since Irene, the Nor'easter, halloween snowstorm and, Sandy, busted through. If we can't convince the client that a reduction is the course of action, then removal vs. an outright topping of the tree is suggested. We will then recommend planting the right tree in the right place.
 
I've talked many out of topping and exactly as you said it boils down to a lack of knowledge by the client. I'd say the majority will listen if you explain it to them respectfully. But there are those that have their mind set. I will gladly walk on those jobs.

I have two very good clients with crepemyrtles in the wrong place. They don't want to remove, but the crepes get too tall and leggy and beat up against the house. For them I top. Well actually pollard. And I've done one Bradford in the past only because the client insisted, even after the full discussion on it. That was a big job too for a good client and she was well informed of the problems it would cause to the tree. She wanted it removed but "not yet". I said "If anyone asks, our company didn't do that tree."

My hypocrisy goes only so far.
 
Yes, some are just not going to get it and at the least we've done some serious crown reductions that we'll come back to tend again with all the associated problems. Fortunately, we don't work in an area where topping is the norm.
 
I am a contract climber from VA and in my neck of the woods topping is a very serious issue. I absolutely refuse to top anything or spike climb anything that isn't being removed. Anyway, as a contract climber many times I am not the one talking to the client. It is true that most times if you take the time to educate the client on this topic they are happy to have you work on their trees using proper pruning methods. In my area most guys have the frame of mind that " if I don't do it someone will". To me those guys don't care about the tree or it's beauty or health, they just want the money. I take the Shigo approach and I think that the best way to change the culture of " bad tree work" is to start by educating the people working on them. I have educated many business owners in my area on proper tree pruning and some of them no longer offer topping. " Proper Pruning"
Respects tree beauty
Respect tree defense systems
Respects tree dignity, Alex Shigo
 
That's all fine and well but the point of the thread was it's not my company. Not my customers. I have no need to interact with the customer and my job is to do what the boss says if I want to get paid. Slippery slope between what's ethical and what I should do as an employee Believe.e when I had my biz and when I sold for another company I never topped or spiked pruning. This is new for me after 15 years or so climbing. Caught between don't think it's ethical and the money is outrageous. No a good spot to be in.
 
rfwoodvt said:
The question is do you even believe in any moral lines?

If you are willing to cross a line because the money is right then do you really have any moral lines?

Sometimes we find ourselves in situations where we may be under duress and believe we must cross some lines we have established.

Unfortunately that is a false belief. We always have the choice, nay the right, to say no and not do something we believe to be wrong.

But, that doesn't mean there won't be a terrible price for standing your ground. Regardless our choice, sometimes there are terrible costs associated with it. The question is, are your morals for sale at any price?

I for one have decided life is too short to sell my morality. If I cannot educate the person requesting me to cross a line to go in a different, indeed better, direction then I will walk away.

Money, atta-boys and other kudos aren't worth my soul, reputation, integrity nor the whip of karma smacking me in the back.

Besides, if we sell our morals on the little things, then it isn't much longer before we begin to weigh the merits of selling our morals on the bigger things. That <u>IS</u> the natural progression of human reasoning and history bears this out.

Prudence, on the other hand, dictates that you extricate yourself from an environment that wants you to prostitute yourself. It may be that you can take some time to find a new outlet. If you have such a luxury then great! But you also need to be prepared to jump out on a moment's notice.

Maintaining your integrity will have bountiful rewards, but just like sowing a garden, those seeds may take a while to bear fruit. But, bear fruit they will. And, if you continue to tend your garden of integrity, it will bear fruit in abundance. Enough so that you will benefit many around you.

Stick to your guns bro. You always have a choice, especially when oppression, whether by man or circumstance, seems to convince you otherwise.
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Really enjoyed this response. Just felt like I should let you know that. Great post sir.
 
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