Why?

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The question is do you even believe in any moral lines?

If you are willing to cross a line because the money is right then do you really have any moral lines?

Sometimes we find ourselves in situations where we may be under duress and believe we must cross some lines we have established.

Unfortunately that is a false belief. We always have the choice, nay the right, to say no and not do something we believe to be wrong.

But, that doesn't mean there won't be a terrible price for standing your ground. Regardless our choice, sometimes there are terrible costs associated with it. The question is, are your morals for sale at any price?

I for one have decided life is too short to sell my morality. If I cannot educate the person requesting me to cross a line to go in a different, indeed better, direction then I will walk away.

Money, atta-boys and other kudos aren't worth my soul, reputation, integrity nor the whip of karma smacking me in the back.

Besides, if we sell our morals on the little things, then it isn't much longer before we begin to weigh the merits of selling our morals on the bigger things. That <u>IS</u> the natural progression of human reasoning and history bears this out.

Prudence, on the other hand, dictates that you extricate yourself from an environment that wants you to prostitute yourself. It may be that you can take some time to find a new outlet. If you have such a luxury then great! But you also need to be prepared to jump out on a moment's notice.

Maintaining your integrity will have bountiful rewards, but just like sowing a garden, those seeds may take a while to bear fruit. But, bear fruit they will. And, if you continue to tend your garden of integrity, it will bear fruit in abundance. Enough so that you will benefit many around you.

Stick to your guns bro. You always have a choice, especially when oppression, whether by man or circumstance, seems to convince you otherwise.

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Reading this it contains all the buzz words that give me a good old belly laugh. Morals,integrity,soul,educating clients,even,god help us, prostitution!
It's tree trimming/felling not end of life care for giant pandas, customer wants their tree topped, boss says "top that tree" just do it, it amazes me that employed climbers would even consider refusing to do work because they feel it's "morally wrong"
 
Well guys heres the deal. I worked for some seriously dangerous folks and decided to go out on my own. I had my own biz for 5 years. Billed out a lot of money and followed the standards as best as I could. When I had my biz, I would NEVER spike on prunings and would walk away from topping. I'd explain the science behind it and if that didn't work i'd tell them I didn't want my trucks parked infront of a job that looked like that. After I got out of it I went to work for Glen Butler. Class act, super professional and followed all the standards. No spiking, no topping, true Arboriculture. I got rid of my Biz because
1. Employees are tough to find.
2. I was the only climber.
3. The time it took to run a biz and do the work was taking a huge toll on my marriage.
4. I have been a professional firefighter for 17 years and was only doing tree work 3 or 4 days a week. Thats a lot of time to have a small fleet of equipt sitting idle in the lot when i'm at the station. Nobody to run the show unless I was there. Thus a 10% profit margin for me. Not the company, but me. The company sustained itself very well but if I had banked all the income, I would have been in debt!

So I left Glen and have worked for some rather questionable folks, mainly because i'm a "part timer"

Now that I am the sole provider for my son, I have to work bankers hours. Who is gonna hire a guy who gets to work at 8 and has to leave at 3 even if the job isn't done. I put it out there for the boss. If they don't want to hire me then so be it. My son won't suffer because i'm working.

So, here I am. Initially when I started I would refuse to use spikes. I was still pruning circles around the other climbers. I'm still going spikeless and the nice thing is, when I'm on the pruning crew things go as they should. Proper tree care. Unfortunately its been a slow winter so i've been on the big crew the entire time. The bottom line is the daily income. No matter what the obstacles are the jobs are expected to get done. Speed is of the essence. You know the underlying tone there.

This particular job was a nightmare for me. 28 trees. No damage to the understory or grass. Very wealthy client and thats what he wanted. He didn't want trees to blow over into his house. My thought, cut em down then. I have never topped a tree so trying to rig tops through a canopy was a miserable experience for me. 3 days on that job. The customer experiences people doing exactly what he asks to be done due to his wealth. I don't know the man personally but was able to figure that out pretty quickly.

The problem is, when the customer wants something specific done, then if they are willing to pay for it, why give the money away. Not agreeing with that statement personally. I'm fine to walk away based on my standards but I have chosen to be an employee of this company and therefore I do not dictate the work practices other than what specifically applies to my personal safety. I don't take this lightly. I realize that if any one of you chose to report me to the ISA they would probably pull my certification. I'm not happy but based on my situation, it's not that easy to just go someplace else.

I love tree work. I love to do prunings. Don't really enjoy removals! I also love the fact I can retire from the fire department with 63% of my salary in 9 years. So what would you have me do. I'm a 44 year old guy with a 5 year old son. He is priority number 1 and whatever I have to do to maintain our lifestyle after loosing 50% of my household income is whats gonna happen. If he is willing to pay me crazy money to work for him then I need to produce crazy results for him or increase his customer base due to my quality work on the pruning crew.

Think about it. Hey can I have a job but I don't work weekends, I am at the fire department 1 or 2 of the 5 days work week, I will leave at 3:00 if the jobs done or not, I will not come in before 8, if my kids' sick I have to stay home with him because I have nobody else to watch him, but on the pluss side, I have all my own gear, all my own saws, climb spikeless, have a lot of pruning experience and I'm a certified Arborist who will always pass a drug test and have a CDL......................................

Guess what the response would be.........you leave at 3? Uh no thanks try someplace else.

No sob story here, just have to compromise and a few things. Life is generally good. Generally
 
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SG,

What can I say. Gravity works, even if you don't believe in it.

If someone stands for nothing, then they will fall for anything. The little things do matter.

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Bumper sticker cliches, signifying nothing.
 
sg, you will see that it matters, if you want to look at the big picture.

Steve, I was in precisely the same family boat as you 20 years ago. Not an easy schedule but you can make it work, of course easier if you are on your own. At age 5-17 my kid was my 'groundie'. Good luck, and remember, if your kid grows up on cheap food like beans and grains he will be healthier for it!

that picture might be easy to act horrified about, knickers in a mighty twist....but what will the trees look like in 3-5-10 years; that's what matters. btw that looks like a much easier job to do from a bucket; some sprawling tips there...
 
I would think your skill set and situation could work for the right company. Just keep looking, talk to people. Even non tree people. I find that the more people I meet and connect with in some significant way, the more opportunities open up. 44 ain't that old, and the fire dept gig sounds like a keeper, you just need to keep your ear to the ground for something to fill the rest of the time and not cause you the stress of worrying about the quality of work. There are employers out there who have dealt with tough situations in their own lives, and will be more understanding of the way your situation works.
 
Holy crap, a job with good pay and bennies and only 3-4 days a week. Spend less money and work one job; it'll give you lots of time to be dad. Get your tree fix by rec climbing with our son on the 3-4 days a week off.

Rick,

You are an articulate man. Can you write some reports for me?
 
Rick, thats a gread idea. Not quite that easy but a great idea!

I keep my ear out looking for the next thing to come along. Heck I've even considered a small chip truck and chipper and just do prunings but then i'd feel the urge to grow my biz again. I'll steer clear of that.

I don't feel like karma is gonna get me or that I have compromised and morals that down allow me to sleep at night. Fortunately I don't do that kind of work often so I can keep to my personal standards on the pruning crew.

Sometimes I do sort of feel like its my choice to work there and he pays me good money so just do what i'm told. Then there's that little voice saying, this sucks. Thanks for all the interesting comments though
 
SG, most of these trees are 2 maybe 3 times older than you'll ever be. The oldest living things on the planet maybe. Does that mean nothing to you?
 
STEVE Connally said,

"Think about it. Hey can I have a job but I don't work weekends, I am at the fire department 1 or 2 of the 5 days work week, I will leave at 3:00 if the jobs done or not, I will not come in before 8, if my kids' sick I have to stay home with him because I have nobody else to watch him, but on the pluss side, I have all my own gear, all my own saws, climb spikeless, have a lot of pruning experience and I'm a certified Arborist who will always pass a drug test and have a CDL......................................

Guess what the response would be.........you leave at 3? Uh no thanks try someplace else."

Steve, as a former business owner you know you need people who are able to produce for you. Your trouble finding people was not unique. The challenge is being able to see the value in a person before the demonstrate it on the job.

Working with people of every walk of life while they were searching for work, I learned that all any company wants is good people to produce the results they need. What you need to do is leave all the negotiable stuff to the end. If your telling them all this up front then you're setting yourself up for failure. Let them know about all the things you have going for you and thus for them! A lot of pruning experience? So what! You know plenty of guys like that. What is the quality of your pruning experience? How did it generate revenue for the company? CDL, nice, plenty of them too busting up what are otherwise perfectly good trucks! What about your driving record? Knowledge of vehicle maintenance and the routes to get you around quickly. How productive are you for the time you'll be there? Get them wanting you and your skills, your ability not just to get a job done but to be productive and increase their revenues. The fact that you're a firefighter is valuable! Your life saving skills, your ability to work under huge stress and stay focused, etc....

No, it's not going to be easy but don't get in your own way!

While you're working for this guy, you can network as Macswan suggested. Find the right fit for your skills, attitude, aptitude and circumstances. There will be someone out there that is willing to work with you on this. They'll hear all that you can do for them and then figure out if they can work with you to accommodate your schedule.
 
TH. I hear ya. I can sell myself quite well. Perfect driving record, taught pruning by one of the best I know, balls to the wall work from clock in to clock out, blah blah blah. I just know how it works. Companies have a daily goal. Not many will be willing to cut short that goal for a guy who leaves at 3. I do hear you. The perfect situation is the one I am in. Crew 2 as we are called is 100% profit for the boss as long as the big crew is making production goals. We bring him a few grand a day in profit and its only running on my days off from the fire station. It could just be a better situation, equipment, and the way jobs are sold. Thats why I get paid what I do. I get the work orders and never see him again for the rest of the day. He knows i'll do rite by him and the customers and the crew. If there is a question, I get "use your judgement, I trust you. I get to do quality work on the crew without somebody breathing over my shoulder wanting me to crank it out because we have 3 more jobs. He also knows what I can do and unless there's a snafu with the estimate, we're not left with any unfinished jobs at the end of the day. I may be dropping out from the tree at 2:59 but it gets done. It's just been a long winter working for what seems like an entirely different company with the big crew. Its fine. I really didn't start this thread to whine about my job, or one of my jobs. I just hate doing (choose the word)crappy quality tree work
 
Just an observation.
You seem to be saying yes to work you would rather say no to so that you don't have to say no to work you would rather say yes to.

"considered a small chip truck and chipper and just do prunings but then i'd feel the urge to grow my biz again. I'll steer clear of that"

Perhaps the struggle to deal with the urge to grow too big would be easier than climbing with a paper bag on your head.

I'm sure you will find what's best for you. All the best.
 
it's not whining, you're just trying to figure out your next step. I have been there recently too. trying to figure out where you want to be, and whether where you are is good enough, or can get you where you want to be.

You are on a plateau, before your next rise. sometimes the flat bit can be nerve racking.
 
2 thoughts- good people are hard to find as you stated. I'm sure that some responsible professional would understand banker hours based on your situation and make something work. I would. And I do.
Secondly- look into subcontracting for a good outfit. Get you own insurance and subcontract( flexible hours) .

Lastly ( I lied 3 points). Did you get into tree work for the money. If you did your going to be disappointed. Good luck!
 
Ha tree work for the money! No sir. I thought it was cool and i've done tech rescue for years so it seemed like a good fit. I've thought about subbing and getting my own insurance. Unfortunately I think the contract climber gets stuck with the absolute worst jobs the normal guys wont do. Seems to be the case. Stick the sub in the dead tree and primary guys in the good ones. I have truly thought about it including the cost to outfit all my own gear and a vehicle for it as well. Just wonder how many ropes some random ground guy would burn up that I had to pay for. Selling myself insured may bring oportunities in a more reputable group of tree services. Wondering also if I could bring my own rope man. Anyway its an idea, just not quite ready to make the move. I'm so anal and type A I don't know if I could resist the urge to get a bigger truck, bigger chipper, stump grinder blah blah. Thats what happened last time. Small jobs lead to big jobs which lead to needing the rite stuff to be efficient enough to make money which lead to more stuff and bigger jobs and on and on. In retrospect, if I was able to find the rite 2 guys to work with me, I think I could do very well just pruning, selling tree care and being a pruning only service. I'm just not sure the market down here in the south would support that. We're not a super progressive green space area. People don't seem to value their canopy as they do in other areas of the country or the state even.
 
Steve, you seem to manage to discipline yourself to stay within certain hours. You could do that in your own business. Structure and discipline thats what it will take to thrive. Then you'll be doing much more for your son in the long run. Run the business, don't let it run you.
 
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SG, most of these trees are 2 maybe 3 times older than you'll ever be. The oldest living things on the planet maybe. Does that mean nothing to you?

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If I worried about felling or trimming trees I'd be in the wrong job.
 
"if I was able to find the rite 2 guys to work with me, I think I could do very well just pruning, selling tree care and being a pruning only service. I'm just not sure the market down here in the south would support that. We're not a super progressive green space area. People don't seem to value their canopy as they do in other areas of the country or the state even."

Not sure what you need 2 guys for. O and your community's not backward, it's an underdeveloped market. Guess whose job that is. ;) A pruning only service is a narrow niche, if you can't sell PHC, diagnosis, appraisal...

Your area gets both hurricanes and ice, so reduction pruning is a valuable service. In your picture, you could have cut higher in the middle and took the sides in a little, but that work you did was no sin. If your current overpaying boss leaves the details to you, maybe just improving your technique might make you satisfied where you are.
 
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If I worried about felling or trimming trees I'd be in the wrong job.

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Maybe felling and trimming IS the wrong job. Maybe stump grinding is your calling.
 
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