chris_girard
Branched out member
- Location
- Gilmanton, N.H.
Why SRT?
- Thread starter DSMc
- Start date
I will try to answer a couple more questions. The limb walk, returning from, like Tom says it is not a lot different from doubled rope, but it is different enough.
On returns where your tip is high enough, you will come in just like Kevin said, using your rope more like a handrail. It is slightly different than doubled rope because you don't lean against the rope quite as hard.
On those really hard, downward sloping limbs, where you have to wedge your foot into a crotch and then lean out and down, I have found no other way to get back out than adding mechanical advantage to the system. This is where I will clip a pulley to the line and run the tail over the pulley and the Unicender is then in a RADS configuration. This allows a 3:1 advantage. Much easier than coming up on a doubled rope and when you are back up into a good position, easily clips off and hangs on your saddle.
If you are using the Unicender on your bridge, it will self-tend the slack as you walk in.
For most situations redirects are just so easy that most of the time you will be able to acquire a better angle,thus not having the difficulty factor on the return walk.
I use single rope for all trees, including removals. I just choke off the line on the stem leaving the tail on the bowline. It is really quite simple.
I hear many say they only use single rope to access large trees. But the same energy expenditure is used whether it is a 20 ft climb or a 100 ft climb. You won't be out of breath in the 20 ft climb, but the energy expenditure is there.
One more thing, and this might belong the other thread on safety, but when doing large conifers where your access line is close to your work area and convoluted and not easy to see, just go directly to your tip and reset it to the outside of the canopy. This takes a little more time, but is well worth it.
Dave
On returns where your tip is high enough, you will come in just like Kevin said, using your rope more like a handrail. It is slightly different than doubled rope because you don't lean against the rope quite as hard.
On those really hard, downward sloping limbs, where you have to wedge your foot into a crotch and then lean out and down, I have found no other way to get back out than adding mechanical advantage to the system. This is where I will clip a pulley to the line and run the tail over the pulley and the Unicender is then in a RADS configuration. This allows a 3:1 advantage. Much easier than coming up on a doubled rope and when you are back up into a good position, easily clips off and hangs on your saddle.
If you are using the Unicender on your bridge, it will self-tend the slack as you walk in.
For most situations redirects are just so easy that most of the time you will be able to acquire a better angle,thus not having the difficulty factor on the return walk.
I use single rope for all trees, including removals. I just choke off the line on the stem leaving the tail on the bowline. It is really quite simple.
I hear many say they only use single rope to access large trees. But the same energy expenditure is used whether it is a 20 ft climb or a 100 ft climb. You won't be out of breath in the 20 ft climb, but the energy expenditure is there.
One more thing, and this might belong the other thread on safety, but when doing large conifers where your access line is close to your work area and convoluted and not easy to see, just go directly to your tip and reset it to the outside of the canopy. This takes a little more time, but is well worth it.
Dave
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
Chris that second video of Johno was what got me to pull the srt climb in last years masters challenge.I actually used the exact system he is using in my climb.The limb walks Im referring to are going down,steep not like that easy stuff in Johnos video,more like what DSMc desribes.I Would install a quick rads system in the really steep limwalks,buts its more of a pain managing your tail them.But if I have a tree with alot of them,why not just go DDRT,less set up.If someones out of breath after a 20 foot footlock they may be in the wrong profession,or just need to buy a ladder.Dorian I appreciate your honesty,sometimes it seems when people are bias they are a little blind to the negatives aspects of something they support.For the record -I SRT and DDRT when I feel its the most efficient,productive and safe for one givin tree.Just do your tree inspection formulate a plan and you then choose the system that best suits the tree.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
im gonna have to post some videos
Man Johno really cranks it out. Limb walk returns are always tougher than going out. I climb with the uni as well. The inner tube chest harness holding the uni upright is very similar to the motion of Ddrt climbing with a vt and a minding pully, one hand on the rope with the free hand on the tree for balance. Whether in srt or Ddrt I'm holding the rope (doubled in the case of Ddrt) and lean against the rope using the pulling strenth of one hand and arm to fine tune adjustment. I'll take the slack thru the hitch or the uni when I am at a stable point in the limb walk. Limb walks without some type of decender system (uni rope wrench petzl ID) are difficult. I used to thumb the cam on my cmi handled ascender as the other hand controlled slack, to go out on the limb walk. I still like Ddrt w/vt for prunes. If need to ascend during a climb I send up the bitter end of my climb line on a choker to my tip. pull the rope thru the vt till the slack is out attach handled ascender, step in w pantin (which is already in place from original ascent) and climb. Reach tip and reattach bitter end to saddle.
- Location
- Bethel, Connecticut
Reading these long posts is more tireing than any climbing technique I have done. Lets just climb.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
Yeah I had a buddy tell me he doesnt have time for the buzz,hes to busy actually climbing.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
[ QUOTE ]
Reading these long posts is more tireing than any climbing technique I have done. Lets just climb.
[/ QUOTE ]
SAST
Reading these long posts is more tireing than any climbing technique I have done. Lets just climb.
[/ QUOTE ]
SAST
- Location
- Holland, Ohio
Kevin. Thanks, that wood is Brazilian Cherry I scarfed from the scrap wood bin. It started out as a tread for a staircase in a million dollar home. My girlfriend works for a high end builder and she brings this stuff home all the time. It has performed very well and the wood is naturally oily and has burnished nicely in the rope channel. I've been on that wrench for about a month and a half. I found that putting the knot on the bottom of this one gave me too much friction and it kept slipping off one side. I could follow Shawn's lead and make a loop and girth it, but this works. I'm looking forward to seeing your set up with the fixe.
Crazy Jimmy, I am backed up by the hitch that my saddle clips into. I use a revolver biner set on the line above me with a prussic and run the tail of my line through it and back to me. This allows me to have MA when returning from limbwalks by pulling down on the tail. It will self tend the hitch and wrench. I can use one hand on the tail and one on the limb if necessary with this method. It takes about 30 seconds to set the revolver.
Crazy Jimmy, I am backed up by the hitch that my saddle clips into. I use a revolver biner set on the line above me with a prussic and run the tail of my line through it and back to me. This allows me to have MA when returning from limbwalks by pulling down on the tail. It will self tend the hitch and wrench. I can use one hand on the tail and one on the limb if necessary with this method. It takes about 30 seconds to set the revolver.
I’ve been trying to work SRT and have a question for you full time SRTers. I set my line with a throwball in a conifer at about 40 to 80 feet, tie off one end at the base and start working the tree as I go up, that’s all good and works great but what do I do when I get to my line at 40 to 80 feet and there is still a lot of tree to go. With double line I leap frog between my climbing line and a flip line on up. My question is how do you get your single line up to the top of the tree from the half way point?
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Any time that I ascend I leave at least 20' of extra line on the access end. This allows a small redi in the crown. Anytime I set a redi I do a rope check to make sure that the end reaches the ground. If it is even close I tie a stopper knot about ten feet up. That will leave me enough tail to FL back up and not hit the ground.
If I know that I'm going to have to advance my TIP I just leave extra tail going to my first TIP. To add weight to the down rope I have a 10oz throwbag with a 4" loop of shoelace. This girth hitches on the rope so the the rope will feed through my Pantin. When I get to my TIP I might bring up the tail and clear the throw bag...or not, depending on the climb. If I do, now I have the bag along to clip/tie to the end of my rope to advance my TIP.
Having a long tail of rope to advance up the tree can be a mess though. In this case I would leave my usual 20', ascend to the first TIP then lanyard in for advancing. I'll have my groundie strip out more rope from my ground anchor to give me enough to make the next advance, along with the 20' extra. Leap frog yourself up.
This is kind of like double lanyard advancing.
My lanyard is setup to use as a short, 20+' short rope too. Tossing the biner end up with the throwbag then choking the biner and moving the adjuster to my bridge moves me up a short pitch.
If I know that I'm going to have to advance my TIP I just leave extra tail going to my first TIP. To add weight to the down rope I have a 10oz throwbag with a 4" loop of shoelace. This girth hitches on the rope so the the rope will feed through my Pantin. When I get to my TIP I might bring up the tail and clear the throw bag...or not, depending on the climb. If I do, now I have the bag along to clip/tie to the end of my rope to advance my TIP.
Having a long tail of rope to advance up the tree can be a mess though. In this case I would leave my usual 20', ascend to the first TIP then lanyard in for advancing. I'll have my groundie strip out more rope from my ground anchor to give me enough to make the next advance, along with the 20' extra. Leap frog yourself up.
This is kind of like double lanyard advancing.
My lanyard is setup to use as a short, 20+' short rope too. Tossing the biner end up with the throwbag then choking the biner and moving the adjuster to my bridge moves me up a short pitch.
[ QUOTE ]
But if I have a tree with alot of them,why not just go DDRT,less set up.If someones out of breath after a 20 foot footlock they may be in the wrong profession,
[/ QUOTE ]
Read more carefully and things may make more sense. The thread title is "Why SRT" not which is faster, easier or better.
The modern doubled rope system with its support gear is magnificent and efficient. But it is still based on upper body powered movement. Using this system has proven to cause repetitive use injuries for many full time and long time professionals.
I know many climbers that stopped because of pain from this. Some are ok with this, some are not. I know some who can't hold their grand kids over their head.
Life is full of choices.
Dave
But if I have a tree with alot of them,why not just go DDRT,less set up.If someones out of breath after a 20 foot footlock they may be in the wrong profession,
[/ QUOTE ]
Read more carefully and things may make more sense. The thread title is "Why SRT" not which is faster, easier or better.
The modern doubled rope system with its support gear is magnificent and efficient. But it is still based on upper body powered movement. Using this system has proven to cause repetitive use injuries for many full time and long time professionals.
I know many climbers that stopped because of pain from this. Some are ok with this, some are not. I know some who can't hold their grand kids over their head.
Life is full of choices.
Dave
TC
Participating member
SRT for work positioning is a regressive step in my opinion due to the fact that in most cases SRT'rs are tying off their line at the base of the tree or setting up a belay system for groundie based rescues meaning the climber has a huge length of life supporting rope running from the base of the tree up to the TIP that could be cut during the course of any treeclimbing operations, for example, by either A - the climber forgetting for a split second it is there during some ivy removal or B - a groundie clearing branches away from the base stem using a small ground saw or Silky, and for a split second he forgets about the lifeline round the base of the tree. These are just two examples.
DdRT is an inherently safer form of climbing due the fact the working part of the line is nearly always above you making it visible and relatively free from harm in comparison to the SRT line, which for huge parts of the climb is below the climber and not visible.
In my opinion, SRT for work positioning has serious safety implications and for that reason I will never use it other than for access.
Good luck to all SRT'rs.
.
DdRT is an inherently safer form of climbing due the fact the working part of the line is nearly always above you making it visible and relatively free from harm in comparison to the SRT line, which for huge parts of the climb is below the climber and not visible.
In my opinion, SRT for work positioning has serious safety implications and for that reason I will never use it other than for access.
Good luck to all SRT'rs.
.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
yeah that body thrusting is rough on you im sure DSMc.You dont think some problems from tree care could be caused from the actual work everyday.WE repeat the same movements everyday,hand saw,starting a chainsaw,operating a saw,using spikes,lifting logs,polesawing,dragging brush and so on.You dont think any of these things could attribute to msds?Nope its just that evil doubled rope it caused them all!
I know the title of the thread and I was showing reasons of why not to use SRT,shouldnt we explain both sides.I think SRT is great for alot of applications especially ascent.But coming back from limbwalks using a mere 1 to 1 system cant be any better for your body.Or solely using a pantin on one leg all the time cant be good for you.Or using and ascender above your prussick with no back up above.Or even using a unicender with a narrow 11mm rope(It can come out it happend to me) or using a an ascender above ur uni with no back up above.Go back and read some of your own post from the last few years.You srt guys are gonna get someone killed because you want so much to push this system that you are totally are blind to any flaws or dangers it may have.
Sorry I guess im a little annoyed still about being 50 ft up and noticing my uni unbraided it self and nobody ever warned me that was possible.No disrespect but you cant just list the whys and not the why nots.People are reading this that dont know jack-they need the negatives and dangers to.
So come guys lets start being totally honest in these threads about srt so others can really advance there climbing.
Heres a video for why not srt enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Vv-BWhbUg
I know the title of the thread and I was showing reasons of why not to use SRT,shouldnt we explain both sides.I think SRT is great for alot of applications especially ascent.But coming back from limbwalks using a mere 1 to 1 system cant be any better for your body.Or solely using a pantin on one leg all the time cant be good for you.Or using and ascender above your prussick with no back up above.Or even using a unicender with a narrow 11mm rope(It can come out it happend to me) or using a an ascender above ur uni with no back up above.Go back and read some of your own post from the last few years.You srt guys are gonna get someone killed because you want so much to push this system that you are totally are blind to any flaws or dangers it may have.
Sorry I guess im a little annoyed still about being 50 ft up and noticing my uni unbraided it self and nobody ever warned me that was possible.No disrespect but you cant just list the whys and not the why nots.People are reading this that dont know jack-they need the negatives and dangers to.
So come guys lets start being totally honest in these threads about srt so others can really advance there climbing.
Heres a video for why not srt enjoy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7Vv-BWhbUg
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
[ QUOTE ]
I’ve been trying to work SRT and have a question for you full time SRTers. I set my line with a throwball in a conifer at about 40 to 80 feet, tie off one end at the base and start working the tree as I go up, that’s all good and works great but what do I do when I get to my line at 40 to 80 feet and there is still a lot of tree to go. With double line I leap frog between my climbing line and a flip line on up. My question is how do you get your single line up to the top of the tree from the half way point?
[/ QUOTE ]
Its the same is in ddrt. I lanyard in. Unclip and throw a bight over the next crotch. you dont need to pull your whole tail over until you've set your final tip. I am also one of the few people you'll meet that will sometimes ddrt (alternate lanyard) for ascent and SRT the rest of the tree.
I use my ground man a lot.
Jimmy, If someone goes and kills themselves because we have been enthusiastic about SRT, Don't put that on us. No one is ever safe in tree climbing and when I read these posts I take what is good and leave what doesn't apply to me. I like to share how I climb and if you ever see me doing things that worry you, speak up. thats a very useful part of treebuzz. Don't be shy to say "hey I think thats dangerous!". Then there is a discussion. But this is the internet and my free time, its not life and death here. I am very safe this very moment and so is the person reading it unless they are driving.
Very much YES! the back leg of the SRT line can represent a HAZARD. A very real one. Work with it, its your friend. You have to always know where its at. It doesnt leave your system just because its on the back side. you have to understand the friction and the angles and everything between you to your TIP.
In the trunk tie scenario you have to remember that your TIP is the TRUNK of the tree. Tie In Point. TIP. From there is the rope that you are working with. the path that the rope travels from the TIP to you is all very equally important and will effect your climb. Do not refer to it as the back side or refer to it as something you would even think about forgetting about. It seems that there is a tendency to refer to that half of the rope with a different term, like its not even the same as the rope that your attached to.
If you have that understanding of SRT then it is exactly the same rule as in dDRT. You do not want to cut any rope between you and your tie in point. ever, exclamation point!
It makes there a lot more things to consider, Your working with a lot of rope but because you have so much more rope you have a lot more options. More to think about but more to work with. With 150 feet of rope I can travel 150 feet.
think we have covered a lot of the different techniques. Like a removal for example. I dont think anyone here would use a trunk tie with a removal. You bring the TIP down with you. Or even on any tree that requires rigging. If your going to place a block in the tree your going to have to go back and retrieve that block at the end of the climb. Make your system retrievable from where your Block is. Then possibly a final ddrt descent.
Ward's washer and cabium saver idea I think has a lot of potential.
I’ve been trying to work SRT and have a question for you full time SRTers. I set my line with a throwball in a conifer at about 40 to 80 feet, tie off one end at the base and start working the tree as I go up, that’s all good and works great but what do I do when I get to my line at 40 to 80 feet and there is still a lot of tree to go. With double line I leap frog between my climbing line and a flip line on up. My question is how do you get your single line up to the top of the tree from the half way point?
[/ QUOTE ]
Its the same is in ddrt. I lanyard in. Unclip and throw a bight over the next crotch. you dont need to pull your whole tail over until you've set your final tip. I am also one of the few people you'll meet that will sometimes ddrt (alternate lanyard) for ascent and SRT the rest of the tree.
I use my ground man a lot.
Jimmy, If someone goes and kills themselves because we have been enthusiastic about SRT, Don't put that on us. No one is ever safe in tree climbing and when I read these posts I take what is good and leave what doesn't apply to me. I like to share how I climb and if you ever see me doing things that worry you, speak up. thats a very useful part of treebuzz. Don't be shy to say "hey I think thats dangerous!". Then there is a discussion. But this is the internet and my free time, its not life and death here. I am very safe this very moment and so is the person reading it unless they are driving.
Very much YES! the back leg of the SRT line can represent a HAZARD. A very real one. Work with it, its your friend. You have to always know where its at. It doesnt leave your system just because its on the back side. you have to understand the friction and the angles and everything between you to your TIP.
In the trunk tie scenario you have to remember that your TIP is the TRUNK of the tree. Tie In Point. TIP. From there is the rope that you are working with. the path that the rope travels from the TIP to you is all very equally important and will effect your climb. Do not refer to it as the back side or refer to it as something you would even think about forgetting about. It seems that there is a tendency to refer to that half of the rope with a different term, like its not even the same as the rope that your attached to.
If you have that understanding of SRT then it is exactly the same rule as in dDRT. You do not want to cut any rope between you and your tie in point. ever, exclamation point!
It makes there a lot more things to consider, Your working with a lot of rope but because you have so much more rope you have a lot more options. More to think about but more to work with. With 150 feet of rope I can travel 150 feet.
think we have covered a lot of the different techniques. Like a removal for example. I dont think anyone here would use a trunk tie with a removal. You bring the TIP down with you. Or even on any tree that requires rigging. If your going to place a block in the tree your going to have to go back and retrieve that block at the end of the climb. Make your system retrievable from where your Block is. Then possibly a final ddrt descent.
Ward's washer and cabium saver idea I think has a lot of potential.
Crazy_Jimmy
Participating member
- Location
- Texas
I thought thats what I was doing Kevin and always do.Yeah if someone kills themself because of a technique you show them and intentionally leave out dangerous aspects of it,thats on you.I know this is the internet but stuff greenys read on here they go out and try.For the record my post wasnt directed at you anyway.I think guys who promote the uni had to know it could come out of bars mid climb,but did no mention it because of fear that it would hurt sales or its reputation.It happen to me more than once the first month.Heck maybe they didnt-who knows.
Man Beddes sure is smooth in that video none the less.
Man Beddes sure is smooth in that video none the less.
[ QUOTE ]
A - the climber forgetting for a split second it is there during some ivy removal
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean like a climber not paying attention and cutting their doubled rope with their handsaw.
[ QUOTE ]
or B - a groundie clearing branches away from the base stem using a small ground saw or Silky, and for a split second he forgets about the lifeline round the base of the tree.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, look at the bright side. With it tied off at the base of the tree they can't drag it into the chipper!
[ QUOTE ]
DdRT is an inherently safer form of climbing due the fact the working part of the line is nearly always above you making it visible and relatively free from harm in comparison to the SRT line, which for huge parts of the climb is below the climber and not visible.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do know, don't you, the SRT line does not have to be tied to the base of the tree you are working in if there are better alternatives.
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, SRT for work positioning has serious safety implications and for that reason I will never use it other than for access..
[/ QUOTE ]
Our profession is dangerous. Much more so if our tools are not used properly.
Dave
A - the climber forgetting for a split second it is there during some ivy removal
[/ QUOTE ]
You mean like a climber not paying attention and cutting their doubled rope with their handsaw.
[ QUOTE ]
or B - a groundie clearing branches away from the base stem using a small ground saw or Silky, and for a split second he forgets about the lifeline round the base of the tree.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey, look at the bright side. With it tied off at the base of the tree they can't drag it into the chipper!
[ QUOTE ]
DdRT is an inherently safer form of climbing due the fact the working part of the line is nearly always above you making it visible and relatively free from harm in comparison to the SRT line, which for huge parts of the climb is below the climber and not visible.
[/ QUOTE ]
You do know, don't you, the SRT line does not have to be tied to the base of the tree you are working in if there are better alternatives.
[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, SRT for work positioning has serious safety implications and for that reason I will never use it other than for access..
[/ QUOTE ]
Our profession is dangerous. Much more so if our tools are not used properly.
Dave
[ QUOTE ]
You dont think any of these things could attribute to msds?Nope its just that evil doubled rope it caused them all!
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course they can cause overuse or repetitive use injury. However, I know lots of real old groundsmen handling chainsaws, handsaws, dragging brush...all aspects of tree work other than climbing and they are still doing it. I know some really, really old tree workers who fly a bucket and do all aspects of tree work, except for climbing, and they're still doing it. So yes, I see a common denominator. I have my own experiences to back that up. Don't forget I have been climbing doubled rope, professionally as an arborist, for more years than you have been alive.
Why would I bother using single rope if I thought it was taking a step backwards? Or why would I use it if I thought it lessened my chances of survival? The answers are, I wouldn't.
You seem to have a bone to pick with the Unicender. Not all things are going to work for everybody. If used beyond its design the tail can become disengaged from the bottom hook. By this I mean, if you are fussing with your ropes, rearranging your position and the Unicender is hanging loose or upside down and then you go to put your weight on it, the tail might not be in the right position. I have never had it come off the cams. When I am using a new tool, I take the time to learn what it can and cannot do, as everyone should. I can make any knot or tool fail by using it beyond its design limits. Learn the limits.
So I guess I feel you are trying to place the blame on others for some of your own mistakes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is the way it sounds.
Dave
You dont think any of these things could attribute to msds?Nope its just that evil doubled rope it caused them all!
[/ QUOTE ]
Of course they can cause overuse or repetitive use injury. However, I know lots of real old groundsmen handling chainsaws, handsaws, dragging brush...all aspects of tree work other than climbing and they are still doing it. I know some really, really old tree workers who fly a bucket and do all aspects of tree work, except for climbing, and they're still doing it. So yes, I see a common denominator. I have my own experiences to back that up. Don't forget I have been climbing doubled rope, professionally as an arborist, for more years than you have been alive.
Why would I bother using single rope if I thought it was taking a step backwards? Or why would I use it if I thought it lessened my chances of survival? The answers are, I wouldn't.
You seem to have a bone to pick with the Unicender. Not all things are going to work for everybody. If used beyond its design the tail can become disengaged from the bottom hook. By this I mean, if you are fussing with your ropes, rearranging your position and the Unicender is hanging loose or upside down and then you go to put your weight on it, the tail might not be in the right position. I have never had it come off the cams. When I am using a new tool, I take the time to learn what it can and cannot do, as everyone should. I can make any knot or tool fail by using it beyond its design limits. Learn the limits.
So I guess I feel you are trying to place the blame on others for some of your own mistakes. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is the way it sounds.
Dave
