That sounds like a bunch of fun.
Why do climbers shun sawzalls?
- Thread starter eyehearttrees
- Start date
JeffGu
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Osceola, Nebraska
The older I get, the more I find myself taking the time to notice the details and sort out the advantages/disadvantages to the gear I have. In the last couple of years, I've been doing a lot of pruning on landscape and fruit trees. I'm finding myself carrying around both a curved and straight blade. Cutting over my head, the curved blade almost always seems to work better, and on stuff over about 1-1/2" it seems to cut faster/better. But I'm using the straight blade saws a lot more. Smaller wood, tight places, and springy stems especially... and it does seem much more accurate when cutting close to the branch collar.
The only thing I've actually determined is that I can't seem to live without having both. Now, in the tree, I just have to figure out which will be the most useful for the job at hand. Luckily, that's usually pretty easy to do. A few days ago, I did a small job that involved some pruning and reduction, and removing some deadwood. Even though I much prefer the chainsaw on deadwood, I left it on the ground and took up a Sugoi and a straight-blade saw that is not a Silky (I know, I'm a heretic!) and I had one of the best days in a tree that I've had in a long time. Relaxed pace, a beautiful, cloudy, cool day and three cans of cold Expresso coffee drinks in my ditty bag.
A day with only handsaws is good for your soul. Screw technology.
The only thing I've actually determined is that I can't seem to live without having both. Now, in the tree, I just have to figure out which will be the most useful for the job at hand. Luckily, that's usually pretty easy to do. A few days ago, I did a small job that involved some pruning and reduction, and removing some deadwood. Even though I much prefer the chainsaw on deadwood, I left it on the ground and took up a Sugoi and a straight-blade saw that is not a Silky (I know, I'm a heretic!) and I had one of the best days in a tree that I've had in a long time. Relaxed pace, a beautiful, cloudy, cool day and three cans of cold Expresso coffee drinks in my ditty bag.
A day with only handsaws is good for your soul. Screw technology.
Silky Gomtaro 300 Pro-Sentei Hand Saw
New and improved dual-purpose saw with both fine and large teeth on the same 12" blade. Excellent for cutting small and large branches without having to reach for another saw, this saw featur
www.treestuff.com
ATH
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Findlay, Ohio
Yes...I read through to make sure it wasn't just a blade - description included Al scabbard.
Agree on Amazon craziness. I've bought replacement blades for my Tsugui for $17. Another time I saw Sugoi "last 3" for $50 each. I still have one of those in original packaging in the garage.
If I can pick it local I try to..unless it is a lot cheaper online. The big thing I get out of online shopping is selection - a lot of things that local places just wouldn't carry are available to order. That and I'll think of something at 1am and can just order it on the spot....
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eyehearttrees
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- Tampa-Area
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You say 'extra aggressive Silky', which ones are those? The only demarcation I noticed in their catalogue, aside from the obvious shapes/sizes of the blades' edges, was whether or not it got impulse-hardening...your phrasing makes me wonder if certain silky's are sharper? Would mean they dull quicker I expect? Sharpening seems...less than straightforward (I wonder if my chain-rakes' file is suitable for the teeth on my pruning saw, it's a Stihl am unsure if it's impulse-hardened though....gonna try it!!)
That last part is where you lose me....In essence, for a handsaw to *outperform* a powered saw, your arm would have to be stronger than the battery of powered saw, and while you may be able to generate good force it's pointless to use "a battery's worth of your energy" cutting things. You talk about how with the perfect blade, a pruning-saw becomes so great- I don't disagree, but if we're making a fair comparison we'd have to compare *that same blade* on the pruning-saw & a reciprocating saw, I'll take the battery-power for driving the blade (and a lower level of *my* strength for downward pressure on the unit + maintaining posture), if the same blade is on both units I can't wrap my head around the idea that the unpowered unit could somehow out-perform the powered one...
Good write-up on sawzalls, alongside an angle-grinder it's the most-used tool in my repertoire for sure I've got 4 sawzalls lol (am moving-into arborism from 'general-sevices' so sawzalls are very very familiar to me, would hate not being able to use mine for my '1st pass' in cluttered canopies!)
eyehearttrees
Not a new Member
- Location
- Tampa-Area
No idea, it was literally bent 90deg at the handle and covered in rust, and even after restoration it took a while before I noticed 'Stihl', I then designated it my swamping-saw (every Feb I collect a couple species of trees for my bonsai garden) because I was just so impressed with the thing, was kicking myself in the ass for that careless usage earlier this year when I finally learned it was an arborists' pruning-saw for climbing, and that I didn't have to go buy a piece of 'the kit' (which, at that time, was destroying my wallet I think I'm over 3.5k on gear this year although I didn't even have a harness)
Will definitely get a Silky when the time comes, and actually do use my Stihl *sometimes*, I guess different strokes for different folks cuz I'd HATE if I couldn't use my sawzall for my '1st pass' in a canopy, I always setup a "equipment pulley" (on maybe 5mm rope with this lil 0.5" accessory pulley) near my anchoring so I can have gear shot up & down quickly and have almost stopped using the handsaw in favor of sawzall, 25cc top-handle, then 42cc rear-handle for anything I can't get with my top-handle (will be getting a 30's-cc top-handle in the near future for an in-between saw, know I have a chasm in my collection there!)
eyehearttrees
Not a new Member
- Location
- Tampa-Area
OldOakMan (neat name, Oaks are among my favorite
) yeah I definitely wouldn't advise cords in-canopy but the 18v units on the market now are insane, the unit I use is years-old and I'm waiting til I kill it before upgrading but even mine is surprisingly powerful (to the point I rarely go for my corded, bigger sawzalls - I use them a lot, tree work isn't my main job yet sadly) and having a good repertoire of blades is certainly key, @ATH if you were cutting a bunch of rods you'd be using a high TPI/fine-tipped blade on a sawzall if you had it / were familiar with it (instead of the cordless angle grinder you mention), even a corded angle grinder w/ cut-off would be a good choice for *one* rod but the idea of a cut-off-wheel trying to work-through a pile of rods is probably a good analogy to trying to chainsaw through a pile of logs haha, the fine-toothed sawzall would win any day (do you have a cordless angle grinder? I actually returned mine, I realllly wanted one in my 18V kit and got the new version[Green] of the ryobi one, thing was so weak I had to go return it and give up on the idea of an 18v grinder with guts, TBH I don't know how the sawzall does what it does on just 18v! Though to be fair with just double that there's chainsaws that are beating petrol, so...)
eyehearttrees
Not a new Member
- Location
- Tampa-Area
At this time of the year that can be 9/10 trees on some properties here, and I mean woody/lignified vines reaching around 1" thick! Those aren't the only reason I like using my sawzall, however, but for those use-cases I couldn't imagine trying to force my top-handle's bar all around through the vines, you've almost 'gotta' 1-hand because you need to grab clumps of vines....that's 1 area that a sawzall especially shines, in that you can make a 1-handed cut anywhere you can reach your hand (well, 1' away from your hand!) at any angle, am going to modify mine so there's no safety-trigger because sometimes when cutting upside-down with it (1-handed) I have to use my other hand to release the safety, then regain my positioning, then cut...once I remove that redundant trigger the reach/versatility will be that much better
I never finish my 2nd 18v battery, want to be clear I'm only proposing its use as a '1st pass' tool, with the size//power factor these things have I am truly surprised they're not getting way more use here :/ I was just browsing the Silky offerings and had forgotten how much these saws are!!! Unsure how long a blade is supposed to last - are these getting 1 season of good use or 4?- but with the sawzall mine could be purchased (with batteries) for like $50, and the blades are barely a buck or two apiece, I'm nuts about sharpness and with my saws I am always debating whether it's worth doing an on-site sharpening or not but with the sawzall I just throw in a new Diablo blade every time it feels dull...these blades are markedly better than any others I've tried, I'd strongly urge anyone uncertain about these to put a fresh-powered, new-blade sawzall-with-diablo through a 4x4, they are diesel little machines sometimes I'll even do bigger cuts with it if I don't have a groundie feeding me gear I have cut surprisingly large things with the sawzall!
SomethingWitty
Arkansawyer
- Location
- LR
Honestly, they seem to dull about the same speed. I use a blade for 6-8 months usually.The TPI is everything. You have to start the cut gently with a large tooth saw, but they just eat so well once it gets started. Somewhere in the 6 tooth per inch range is where the magic happens. I haven't tried the new extra aggressive zubat, but I think it is something like 4.6 teeth per inch. Those are big teeth.Username checks-out
You say 'extra aggressive Silky', which ones are those? The only demarcation I noticed in their catalogue, aside from the obvious shapes/sizes of the blades' edges, was whether or not it got impulse-hardening...your phrasing makes me wonder if certain silky's are sharper? Would mean they dull quicker I expect? Sharpening seems...less than straightforward (I wonder if my chain-rakes' file is suitable for the teeth on my pruning saw, it's a Stihl am unsure if it's impulse-hardened though....gonna try it!!)
That last part is where you lose me....In essence, for a handsaw to *outperform* a powered saw, your arm would have to be stronger than the battery of powered saw, and while you may be able to generate good force it's pointless to use "a battery's worth of your energy" cutting things. You talk about how with the perfect blade, a pruning-saw becomes so great- I don't disagree, but if we're making a fair comparison we'd have to compare *that same blade* on the pruning-saw & a reciprocating saw, I'll take the battery-power for driving the blade (and a lower level of *my* strength for downward pressure on the unit + maintaining posture), if the same blade is on both units I can't wrap my head around the idea that the unpowered unit could somehow out-perform the powered one...
Good write-up on sawzalls, alongside an angle-grinder it's the most-used tool in my repertoire for sure I've got 4 sawzalls lol (am moving-into arborism from 'general-sevices' so sawzalls are very very familiar to me, would hate not being able to use mine for my '1st pass' in cluttered canopies!)
JeffGu
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Osceola, Nebraska
If you can find a Silky blade that fits a reciprocating saw, you could try that.
Using your logic, then.... replace the battery motor with a chainsaw engine. Get those horsepower and RPM up there... man, that would be really fast, right? And while you're at it, get two guys to push down on the end of the saw, more downward force, lots better cutting!
The fact is, more power and more RPM and more downward force will only speed up or improve cutting if the blade can remain sharp, clear the material being removed fast enough, not generate excessive heat and gum up the blade, cut cleanly and not "brute force" tear at the wood fibers causing the blade to clog up even worse.
A chainsaw actually IS designed to meet these requirements, within the limits of the technology and with a price for the performance. The earliest powered saws attached an engine to the saw blades in use at the time... with the same action as a reciprocating saw... and the performance was pathetic and slow. Less human effort, but no faster. Lots of videos on YouTube of these old machines in action... I warn you, though... be prepared to be bored senseless.
Yes, a reciprocating saw requires a little less human effort to operate. It's also a lot heavier than a handsaw, so some of the effort you saved by not having to move the blade, you will lose back to trying to hold the power saw, carry it around, etc.
Performance is about more than cutting speed and human effort, and I haven't found a reciprocating saw to be much of a performer in the tree, with only a few exceptions.
ATH
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Findlay, Ohio
Where are you getting Diablo (pruning?) blades for a buck or 2?
I use them for root pruning, but find them closer to $4 each.
Reciprocating saws have their place, but it is not pruning. You are free to use it...but take notice of 4 pages of experienced arborists answering your question. Just because you don't like the answers doesn't make those answers wrong.
ATH
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Findlay, Ohio
Came today...yep, it was the whole saw. Maybe I'll put a piece of wood in the vise and try a new Sugoi vs. new large too Tsurugi competition.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Username checks-out
You say 'extra aggressive Silky', which ones are those? The only demarcation I noticed in their catalogue, aside from the obvious shapes/sizes of the blades' edges, was whether or not it got impulse-hardening...your phrasing makes me wonder if certain silky's are sharper? Would mean they dull quicker I expect? Sharpening seems...less than straightforward (I wonder if my chain-rakes' file is suitable for the teeth on my pruning saw, it's a Stihl am unsure if it's impulse-hardened though....gonna try it!!)
That last part is where you lose me....In essence, for a handsaw to *outperform* a powered saw, your arm would have to be stronger than the battery of powered saw, and while you may be able to generate good force it's pointless to use "a battery's worth of your energy" cutting things. You talk about how with the perfect blade, a pruning-saw becomes so great- I don't disagree, but if we're making a fair comparison we'd have to compare *that same blade* on the pruning-saw & a reciprocating saw, I'll take the battery-power for driving the blade (and a lower level of *my* strength for downward pressure on the unit + maintaining posture), if the same blade is on both units I can't wrap my head around the idea that the unpowered unit could somehow out-perform the powered one...
Silky measures the aggressiveness by way of Teeth Per Inch, the smaller the number, the bigger the tooth, the more aggressive it is in laymens terms, it goes M, L, XL... There is also two different tooth designs which may or may not be impulse hardened by default.
You can't wrap your head around how it can be faster because you haven't used one.. These saws are head & shoulders above anything your most likley used to.. Once you use one thats correct for the application youll see how much of a pain your sawzall really is.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Yes.. do it my friend...
Id be interested in hearing the difference..
I forget, what are the other differences in the one you just got? Is it straight? Impulse? Tooth design?
Since looking into these saws I've been trying to look for a pattern of certain features dictating other features.. there's just so many options with these damn things i can't keep track. What i mean by that is, non-set tooth = impulse hardening or vice versa. Or XL teeth = non-set tooth design by default.. (none of those examples are fact btw, just examples of what I'm trying to identify)
ATH
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Findlay, Ohio
Tsurugi has impulse hardened teeth. I already had a medium tooth Tsurugi (well...2 - 1 for each vehicle). I wanted to try a large tooth, and couldn't not buy it for $33.
Sugoi has larger teeth and a curved blade (there are also curved blade Tsurugi saws...but I got a straight one). Sugoi is longer at 360mm (vs 300)...but there are longer Tsurugi. It is not that hard to sharpen a Sugoi with the right file (here: https://www.treestuff.com/silky-sharpening-file/ or here: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32951&cat=1,43072,43089).
If I only had one, it would be a Tsurugi medium tooth because of its versatility. I use the Sugoi more...because it cuts faster. But on young trees, it is the Tsurugi all day. I envision the large tooth Tsurugi being used on a lot of pear trees with larger limbs...want the aggressive cut, but need to fit in tight spaces.
Sugoi has larger teeth and a curved blade (there are also curved blade Tsurugi saws...but I got a straight one). Sugoi is longer at 360mm (vs 300)...but there are longer Tsurugi. It is not that hard to sharpen a Sugoi with the right file (here: https://www.treestuff.com/silky-sharpening-file/ or here: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32951&cat=1,43072,43089).
If I only had one, it would be a Tsurugi medium tooth because of its versatility. I use the Sugoi more...because it cuts faster. But on young trees, it is the Tsurugi all day. I envision the large tooth Tsurugi being used on a lot of pear trees with larger limbs...want the aggressive cut, but need to fit in tight spaces.
Joeybagodonuts
Participating member
- Location
- Boondocks
Thanks for your update ATH.
I understand your explanation.
Have you ever seen (possibly a discontinued model) a extra large tooth straight blade?
