When employees break things

wow!so many opinions to digest here!And many very valid concepts.I think the truth lies somewhere between pace of production and safety.The elephant in the room so to speak is productivity!! Lets face it people and not ignore the fact that this is a production based service is it not?Before one of you carefully authors your retort stop and think for a minute..........do we,or dont we have an expectation of time on each job?Man hours,days,etc? we are basically selling time.Ok now here comes the flip side. READY? the best and safest climbers take that production level only to a pace that is safe.! WE are always blending the two elements and managing risk.WE must get good at this very quickly.
As far as the person cutting blaming the expectations of pace on the boss,Im not sure I like that ! It stinks of passing the buck.However ,if the company culture is such,then you are correct in that the priority of production OVER safety is wrong!! There should be constant conversation on the 2 with safety winning out.It requires brutal honesty on BOTH people.
The formula needs to be safety over time equals sucess!!
If you mess up once with safety it could get someone killed,If you mess up on production,you could always do better tomorrow...................
My 2cents
 
Im not trying to pass the buck. I am just saying that the mindset is inherent in our culture as a whole. "go go go". The competitions stress speed. speed speed. Life in general stresses speed. I think it is something so strong in our culture that it needs to be constantly checked on a job site. For me personally I need to check it or else I'll pop a telephone cable off or worse. I tell my ground guys to remind me to slow down if they sense the CLOCK starting to loom over the job and the adrenaline starts getting high. Underbid jobs uh oh.
 
Treebing, it's not about breaking a window; it's about what COULD have happened. Maybe someone could have been at the window and blinded by flying glass? Drunk driving isn't illegal for nothing; it's about the potential for disaster, isn't it?

I agree 100% that pressure to produce can be a HUGE factor. I try to price jobs as to not need to kill ourselves to get it done yet still make money. Those here who've worked with me can tell you I'm in no rush. I've even been accused of being overly cautious!
 
The climber should run it past the foreman on the job.

"Hey, I think it would be prudent to rig this one. I could probably land it safely without smashing "x". I think it would take me 4-5 minutes to rig and lower once the riggin gear is ready to pull up."

If you get the go ahead to rig, and it goes well, then you've CYA and the reputation of the company, and the profit margin on the job.

If you get the go ahead to drop it, the ground crew can at least check the window, or do something to protect a plant (garbage can, milk crate, plywood). As a climber, you've CYA.

In the 20 seconds of so that it might take to assess what rigging you'd need, you can have the chance to formulate plan B, and maybe get a ground-vantage point opinion.

If the customer is seeing this communication and risk-assessment and mitigation, it will show care for their property. This may be what really makes the company stand out and receive a good recommendation to others, and compliments to the boss for the crews performance.

I think that a customer's perception of the job is somewhat as important as the objective result of the job, and may set you up to receive a future job, even if the bid is a little higher than the competant competition's bid.
 
Well stated bing! I get that. and agree. I also agree w the idea of trying to bid work so that it can be paced out properly!its definitely the way to go.
since you mentioned pressure I would like to ask this,do you think with this economic climate we are under even more pressure?In order to survive.What say you?
 
Paul, we are definitely under pressure in this economic climate. Less work but the same number of companies pursuing it. Selling effectively becomes even more important. However, too many believe that the price is the only factor.

Another element of the estimating I find too often lacking is the basis of the time estimate. Is it based on the salesperson (often the owner) and there recollection of how long it would take them to do the job? Or is it based on actual data of current production levels with the existing crew? What is needed is a constant stream of communication between the crew and the sales/owner. In this way the bidding becomes more accurate and profit and productivity goes up. If we work with the attitude that we are all there to perform to our best and employers strive to impart their wisdom and experience to their crews.

Continuous learning leads to improved business performance.
 
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It says a lot about a persons character when they offer to make things right.

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I agree.

One of my friends (who knows very little about tree work) needed some work, so I had him help us out. He accidentally broke a window. But, he insisted he pay for it because it was his mistake. Wouldn't all employers love that?
wink.gif
 
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Continuous learning leads to improved business performance.

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Totally true Rob.

And in the context of this thread, I try my best to find those "teachable moments" to point out hazards that can prevent injuires and property damage. The teachable moments are the informal communications from one man's experience to anothers.
 
Kind like a after school special. Jamin.....

I know I've said it here before, most accidents are caused by people not taking their time (or being allowed to take their time). If the boss was pressuring me to get it done fast, and a window broke. Well I may not feel too great but sorry it's on the boss. If I forget to put the oil cap back on the chipper, and we notice a funny smell/smoke, my bad. I'll wash it, buy a new cap, oil, on me and my time. But if the boss wants to doc my pay or suspend me I dont really want to work for that kind of a 0 tight wad anyway.
 
Great answer southsound. A crew that thinks like that is thinking "bigger picture" If i turned up at our job site & saw that i'd be very proud of my crew.

If i got told at the end of the day "oh by the way a window got broken today"
i'd be pissed.

A company owner shouldn't have to waste their time chasing up repairs and it's especially annoying to pay for them when there is a carefree attitude about what happened.

Even if the co. foots the bill, the responsible employee shoud spend his time making all the arrangements on their own time, maybe then getting the lesson.

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The climber should run it past the foreman on the job.

"Hey, I think it would be prudent to rig this one. I could probably land it safely without smashing "x". I think it would take me 4-5 minutes to rig and lower once the riggin gear is ready to pull up."

If you get the go ahead to rig, and it goes well, then you've CYA and the reputation of the company, and the profit margin on the job.

If you get the go ahead to drop it, the ground crew can at least check the window, or do something to protect a plant (garbage can, milk crate, plywood). As a climber, you've CYA.

In the 20 seconds of so that it might take to assess what rigging you'd need, you can have the chance to formulate plan B, and maybe get a ground-vantage point opinion.

If the customer is seeing this communication and risk-assessment and mitigation, it will show care for their property. This may be what really makes the company stand out and receive a good recommendation to others, and compliments to the boss for the crews performance.

I think that a customer's perception of the job is somewhat as important as the objective result of the job, and may set you up to receive a future job, even if the bid is a little higher than the competant competition's bid.

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If i were an employee and I got suspended for busting a window. I would simply find another boss to find me work for those three days. Be as easy as a couple phone calls. Dont believe for a minute I would be sitting on my butt at home thinking about it. Please, get real. I wouldnt think twice about it either. Suspend me, treat me like an eighth grader, I might not come back either.

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I wouldn't want you back...If you are not mature enough to be careful with my equipment or the customer's property then I have no use for you on my crew.

As a business owner I am not here to serve you, you are here to serve the customers and those customers are the people who own the property we are working on and the company you are working for.

Nobody owes you a job and they only owe you a paycheck for products or services you deliver, with quality.

You wouldn't pay the grocery store for rotten meat, why should anyone be expected to pay you for rotten work.

Just my two pennies worth.
 
Great post Rick but my questions are,

Who is this person that we hired?

Was the damage careless or a slip up?

A 3 day suspension for a responsible climber would be rediculous and could do more harm then good.

But, It may be exactly what is needed for someone that needs to take his position and company future more seriously.

Any time I would hire someone I would give them some responsibility to see how they would do with it. If they do well, their responsibilities would increase, and so would their pay. If they found the task challenging they would have to master that task before they could advance. I have no problem paying a guy what he's worth but I determine pay, not the employee. If we can't come together with a win win situation we part ways.

Again, charachter has a lot of pull IMO.
 
What is your threshold?

There is no such thing as an "unavoidable accident"

I've broke things on the job but that is why I have insurance. If I can cover the cost and or make the repair myself I do so where possible.

The other day I let a small pine branch hit the roof of a neighbors house and the owner came out and insisted that he have his roofer look at the roof for any potential damage. Several weeks later the roofer calls me to let me know the roof is find and where should he mail the bill to. The roofer was nice enough to reduce his normal call out fee.

I remember one time back a few years ago when an employee cut his rope with a chain saw. All I could do was keep the shorter rope and give him the longer one and told him to be careful when coming out of the tree because he might have gotten used to a longer line. I'm still using the short rope because it had the eye splice in it.

Its about accountability...
 
lol! thats probably why I dont work for anyone anymore! best decision I ever made. Now if I break something, Its definitly all on me. As for suspension. I just dont think it would be productive in any way.
 
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What is your threshold?

There is no such thing as an "unavoidable accident"

...

[/ QUOTE ]In most cases but not absolutely acurate. I was once taking a dead tree down for another company with my crane.1 of 2. on the 3rd pick the wind came up and broke the top out of the 2nd tree. I was not near it with the boom. If your the 3rd person in line ata red light and 6th person hits 5th the 4th then you I would say thats unavoidable too
I do think most are avoidable including most of mine in my career. Just not all.
 
Thanks for all the input. It seems most of us are on the same page, however, I totally disagree with suspension. This was not a malicious act, it was an accident. How can you possibly suspend some dude trying to make a living for having an accident? Sure, it could have been worse, but it turned out OK, nothing more then a broken window.

I have been accused many times by friends, my wife, and other co workers of being to nice. I think I am making up for some of the bad experiences I had, in other occupations and starting out in tree work. Bosses that were belittling, cheap, poor teachers, etc. This is my problem, and it is a disadvantage to me some of the time. I need to suck it up and be more of a boss then a friend.

Anyway, on with it. Here is what I decided to do: Year end bonus for first year guys is $500. So, anything that gets broken, let it be gear, property or whatever, gets taken out of that. If it exceeds that, maybe I cut into the vacation pay?

I do NOT want to be stingy. I know what its like to be on the other side with a stingy boss, and that is not my goal. I want to have high quality guys that appreciate the job they have, and have some sort of responsibility from their actions and the way they treat gear.

BTW, this person whom I had this incident with is a fantastic employee, he is just young and green and needs more experience, which I am more then willing to guide him with.

I always (well, almost always) bid so there is plenty of time to get the work done without rushing. The one job that had the broken window may have been rushed on the part so they could get out a bit earlier, not so the job could get done on time.

Its funny.... I can remember more clearly the bosses/co workers I did not like more then the ones I did like. Treating people like sh*t is not going to make for a happy, productive work place. Treat your guys with respect, value their opinions, be as generous as you can and it will reward you in the end.
 
There's a huge difference between an unavoidable accident and carelessness. I think most responses were with the carelessness in mind, as, to me this is how it seemed from your original post IMO.

Perhaps it was venting, and who would understand/ sympathize with this better than other tree service owners.
 
I think you handled it correctly for the most part. A major aspect that many of these employers post's neglect is."the cost of doing business. Im not saying that breaking stuff routinely is acceptable but it is a part of residential tree work in urban areas.
It is not reasonable to lower every piece of wood. This job is all about calculated risks and a bit of luck. Sometimes a bad bounce is inevitable and property is damaged.
This month will be my second year of climbing full time for the same employer. In that time I have broken two windows and one expensive ceramic pot. As a climber I know that if this becomes a routine I will become a groundie. My boss has never disciplined me over this. We have discuseed the accident and how to avoid future mistakes and thats the end of that.
A bad review is unacctable and improper pruning should not be tolerated but breaking something now and then, that's just a part of urban tree care. Andrew- Seattle, Washington
 
Being that about half of my work is subbing for other companies, I have to take the position of zero damage. If they wanted stuff broken, they'd have called my competition.
 
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