What knot do you like to use for anchoring....
- Thread starter DonaldRobertson
- Start date
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
Do people find that knotless rigging is really effective with increasing efficiency in the tree? To me it seems the results may be negligible and you are inviting more gear into a situation that already involves a great deal of the stuff.
But, i have no experience with knotless rigging so i was just curious if it is worth investing in more slings and steel biners.
[/ QUOTE ]
Shankenstein,
Seeing that you are in CO, I image a lot of conifers. This can be very useful. I would venture to guess that it is more applicable for conifers than broadleafs.
Speedlining/ slidelining light limbs off of conifers with a sling and biner can be super-useful. You can even "pop" low limbs upward if you have a high anchor point for the speedline and suitably strong trees. This can get long conifer limbs to clear objects below (shrubs, sheds, etc) when tip/ balance-point-tied. This seems to be best if you can set the slideline and climbline from the ground.
Once you are high enough, you can butt-hitch the straps and they land butt-first toward the chipper.
For static loading and low dynamic loading I use a single aluminum non-locking 'biner oftentimes. Use double non-locking, opposite and opposed gates, for more security, or a locking biner.
A finer-point to Knotless rigging is to girth hitch your sling to your 'biner to reduce risk of crossloading. Still, risking the gate coming open unless locking. Another alternative would be to just put several rubber bands tightly around the sling to hold the biner in place. For rock climbing "quickdraws", there are rubber grips to hold the biner on the sling.
These http://www.rei.com/product/474073 are on sale right now, 25% offThose rubber deals are made for Petzl quickdraws, so they will not fit 1" tubular webbing. Probably narrower sewn slings, though.
Tubular webbing tied into a round sling with a beer knot works well, and less expensively than sewn. Of course strength is lost at the knot. Stitching the beer knot "tail" can reduce the knot walking/ migrating. Basic oval carabiners are okay, not the best, but suitable for a lot of applications, and are the cheapest.
Do people find that knotless rigging is really effective with increasing efficiency in the tree? To me it seems the results may be negligible and you are inviting more gear into a situation that already involves a great deal of the stuff.
But, i have no experience with knotless rigging so i was just curious if it is worth investing in more slings and steel biners.
[/ QUOTE ]
Shankenstein,
Seeing that you are in CO, I image a lot of conifers. This can be very useful. I would venture to guess that it is more applicable for conifers than broadleafs.
Speedlining/ slidelining light limbs off of conifers with a sling and biner can be super-useful. You can even "pop" low limbs upward if you have a high anchor point for the speedline and suitably strong trees. This can get long conifer limbs to clear objects below (shrubs, sheds, etc) when tip/ balance-point-tied. This seems to be best if you can set the slideline and climbline from the ground.
Once you are high enough, you can butt-hitch the straps and they land butt-first toward the chipper.
For static loading and low dynamic loading I use a single aluminum non-locking 'biner oftentimes. Use double non-locking, opposite and opposed gates, for more security, or a locking biner.
A finer-point to Knotless rigging is to girth hitch your sling to your 'biner to reduce risk of crossloading. Still, risking the gate coming open unless locking. Another alternative would be to just put several rubber bands tightly around the sling to hold the biner in place. For rock climbing "quickdraws", there are rubber grips to hold the biner on the sling.
These http://www.rei.com/product/474073 are on sale right now, 25% offThose rubber deals are made for Petzl quickdraws, so they will not fit 1" tubular webbing. Probably narrower sewn slings, though.
Tubular webbing tied into a round sling with a beer knot works well, and less expensively than sewn. Of course strength is lost at the knot. Stitching the beer knot "tail" can reduce the knot walking/ migrating. Basic oval carabiners are okay, not the best, but suitable for a lot of applications, and are the cheapest.
A finer-point to Knotless rigging is to girth hitch your sling to your 'biner to reduce risk of crossloading.
Sean I always use single action or screw gate steel biners for rigging cause the take some shock load and get banged around some. I never use aluminium do you find any benifit to non locking aluminum? Also I cow hitch my web slings to the branch unless I can basket into a crotch. But I never cow hitch it to the biner can you explain the cross loading part to me? I was under the impression that every hitch or knot you add to your system reduces the strength. If you had time to explain thaose thing I'd appreciate it thanks.
Kevin
Sean I always use single action or screw gate steel biners for rigging cause the take some shock load and get banged around some. I never use aluminium do you find any benifit to non locking aluminum? Also I cow hitch my web slings to the branch unless I can basket into a crotch. But I never cow hitch it to the biner can you explain the cross loading part to me? I was under the impression that every hitch or knot you add to your system reduces the strength. If you had time to explain thaose thing I'd appreciate it thanks.
Kevin
- Location
- ma
girth, bowline, bowline on a bite, timber, double eight, and cow
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
A finer-point to Knotless rigging is to girth hitch your sling to your 'biner to reduce risk of crossloading.
Sean I always use single action or screw gate steel biners for rigging cause the take some shock load and get banged around some. I never use aluminium do you find any benifit to non locking aluminum? Only that they are a little lighter, cheaper, and faster. I has a full rock climbing rack, and permanently transferred some of my gear to rigging gear. I feel pretty good for a lot of the slidelining to be done on single non-locking 'biners. I assess each one, If the loading will be unpredictable, or I know that the limb is right over the slideline, where it will fall on it, then tumble off, I'll use two non-locking, with opposite and opposed gates, or a screwgate. If it it so heavy that I think that I will need a steel biner, I don't drop them directly onto the speedline/ slideline.
Steel, double locking biners are more predictable and safer, just more expensive, mainly. Since the question was about expense, I suggested it as entry level gear that can be upgraded. Since I'm often using tied 1" tubular webbing with a beer knot, I'm not looking at using this for high load pieces.
Next week I expect to do a more traditional speedline where I will be soft-catching larger pieces, then clipping to the speedline and tensioning for the slide (probably just tensioning by hand for this application).
Also I cow hitch my web slings to the branch unless I can basket into a crotch. But I never cow hitch it to the biner can you explain the cross loading part to me?
If the sling is girth hitched/cow hitched ( I usually think of cow hitching as with an single eye sling, rather than a loop), then it should stay with the proper spine orientation. If it is loose, it can become mis-aligned and cross-load the 'biner, reducing the strength considerably (probably approximately 2/3 less).
I was under the impression that every hitch or knot you add to your system reduces the strength. If you had time to explain thaose thing I'd appreciate it thanks.
As someone mentioned in another thread, reductions won't be added in certain situations, rather it will be the greater of the two reductions that needs to be considered.
For example if there is a sling with a three 'biners at each corner of a triangle,
one just loose (effectively a basket hitch, right?),
and one with a girth hitch,
and one with a clove hitch,
then whichever is weakest is the determining factor of the breaking strength and safe working load limit. If hypothetically the clove hitch breaks at 2000 pounds less than the max breaking strength of the sling, and the girth hitch at 1500 pounds below the maximum breaking strength, then the 2000 pound reduction is the consideration, not 2000 plus 1500 for 3500 pound reduction.
Kevin
[/ QUOTE ]
A finer-point to Knotless rigging is to girth hitch your sling to your 'biner to reduce risk of crossloading.
Sean I always use single action or screw gate steel biners for rigging cause the take some shock load and get banged around some. I never use aluminium do you find any benifit to non locking aluminum? Only that they are a little lighter, cheaper, and faster. I has a full rock climbing rack, and permanently transferred some of my gear to rigging gear. I feel pretty good for a lot of the slidelining to be done on single non-locking 'biners. I assess each one, If the loading will be unpredictable, or I know that the limb is right over the slideline, where it will fall on it, then tumble off, I'll use two non-locking, with opposite and opposed gates, or a screwgate. If it it so heavy that I think that I will need a steel biner, I don't drop them directly onto the speedline/ slideline.
Steel, double locking biners are more predictable and safer, just more expensive, mainly. Since the question was about expense, I suggested it as entry level gear that can be upgraded. Since I'm often using tied 1" tubular webbing with a beer knot, I'm not looking at using this for high load pieces.
Next week I expect to do a more traditional speedline where I will be soft-catching larger pieces, then clipping to the speedline and tensioning for the slide (probably just tensioning by hand for this application).
Also I cow hitch my web slings to the branch unless I can basket into a crotch. But I never cow hitch it to the biner can you explain the cross loading part to me?
If the sling is girth hitched/cow hitched ( I usually think of cow hitching as with an single eye sling, rather than a loop), then it should stay with the proper spine orientation. If it is loose, it can become mis-aligned and cross-load the 'biner, reducing the strength considerably (probably approximately 2/3 less).
I was under the impression that every hitch or knot you add to your system reduces the strength. If you had time to explain thaose thing I'd appreciate it thanks.
As someone mentioned in another thread, reductions won't be added in certain situations, rather it will be the greater of the two reductions that needs to be considered.
For example if there is a sling with a three 'biners at each corner of a triangle,
one just loose (effectively a basket hitch, right?),
and one with a girth hitch,
and one with a clove hitch,
then whichever is weakest is the determining factor of the breaking strength and safe working load limit. If hypothetically the clove hitch breaks at 2000 pounds less than the max breaking strength of the sling, and the girth hitch at 1500 pounds below the maximum breaking strength, then the 2000 pound reduction is the consideration, not 2000 plus 1500 for 3500 pound reduction.
Kevin
[/ QUOTE ]
- Location
- Gibsons BC
Cow or running bowline for the porty, on the piece being lowered either knotless or running bowling with a marl. If I'm tying on a piece near its balance point I'll use a round turn running bowline.
southsoundtree
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Olympia, WA
[ QUOTE ]
Cow or running bowline for the porty, on the piece being lowered either knotless or running bowling with a marl. If I'm tying on a piece near its balance point I'll use a round turn running bowline.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the round turn running bowline simply having an extra revolution?
So then this reduces the load on running bowline while being set for the piece to be able to tip if it is butt or tip heavy?? Bi-directional with less force on the knot?
Cow or running bowline for the porty, on the piece being lowered either knotless or running bowling with a marl. If I'm tying on a piece near its balance point I'll use a round turn running bowline.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the round turn running bowline simply having an extra revolution?
So then this reduces the load on running bowline while being set for the piece to be able to tip if it is butt or tip heavy?? Bi-directional with less force on the knot?
- Location
- Gibsons BC
That's my thoughs on it sean, also more resistance to slipping either way than a standard running bowline.
countryboypa31
New member
- Location
- PA
Got a picture?
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
[ QUOTE ]
For drop hitching, I use a marline hitch instead of a marl under the running bow. Marline hitch stays more secure than a marl.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between a marline hitch and a marl?
Thanks Norm.
Several people have mentioned using a marl (which I understand as basically an overhand knot). On heavy pieces I have found a marl to be more prone to abrasion than a half hitch. On one tree a marl damaged and shredded the cover of 5/8ths Stable Braid, a half hitch did not.
For drop hitching, I use a marline hitch instead of a marl under the running bow. Marline hitch stays more secure than a marl.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between a marline hitch and a marl?
Thanks Norm.
Several people have mentioned using a marl (which I understand as basically an overhand knot). On heavy pieces I have found a marl to be more prone to abrasion than a half hitch. On one tree a marl damaged and shredded the cover of 5/8ths Stable Braid, a half hitch did not.
knudeNoggin
New member
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For drop hitching, I use a marline hitch instead of a marl under the running bow. Marline hitch stays more secure than a marl.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between a marline hitch and a marl?
[/ QUOTE ]
I know the difference, but am having trouble picturing the application!?
[ QUOTE ]
On one tree a marl damaged and shredded the cover of 5/8ths Stable Braid, a half hitch did not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which part of the marl suffered the damage -- mainline pulling through it,
or the crossing part holding the mainline?
The marl does seem to put more torsion into the rope, especially into
the crossing/holding part.
*kN*
[ QUOTE ]
For drop hitching, I use a marline hitch instead of a marl under the running bow. Marline hitch stays more secure than a marl.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between a marline hitch and a marl?
[/ QUOTE ]
I know the difference, but am having trouble picturing the application!?
[ QUOTE ]
On one tree a marl damaged and shredded the cover of 5/8ths Stable Braid, a half hitch did not.
[/ QUOTE ]
Which part of the marl suffered the damage -- mainline pulling through it,
or the crossing part holding the mainline?
The marl does seem to put more torsion into the rope, especially into
the crossing/holding part.
*kN*
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For drop hitching, I use a marline hitch instead of a marl under the running bow. Marline hitch stays more secure than a marl.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between a marline hitch and a marl?
Thanks Norm.
Several people have mentioned using a marl (which I understand as basically an overhand knot). On heavy pieces I have found a marl to be more prone to abrasion than a half hitch. On one tree a marl damaged and shredded the cover of 5/8ths Stable Braid, a half hitch did not.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's an overhand knot instead of a half hitch. It holds much better than a half hitch (marl). I'm in San Diego, CA visiting my daughter for the Thanksgiving Holiday. I can take a pic when I get back to Chitown if you want?
[ QUOTE ]
For drop hitching, I use a marline hitch instead of a marl under the running bow. Marline hitch stays more secure than a marl.
[/ QUOTE ]
What is the difference between a marline hitch and a marl?
Thanks Norm.
Several people have mentioned using a marl (which I understand as basically an overhand knot). On heavy pieces I have found a marl to be more prone to abrasion than a half hitch. On one tree a marl damaged and shredded the cover of 5/8ths Stable Braid, a half hitch did not.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's an overhand knot instead of a half hitch. It holds much better than a half hitch (marl). I'm in San Diego, CA visiting my daughter for the Thanksgiving Holiday. I can take a pic when I get back to Chitown if you want?
- Location
- Bloomington, Indiana
Thanks Norm. No need for a photo.
I have always understood:
half hitch = half hitch
marl = overhand knot (= marline hitch)
That's how Don Blair described it.
So too Michael Tain here:
http://www.treeservicesmagazine.com/article.php?id=3984
Regardless of nomenclature, I've found that, as you say, the 'overhand' version does stay in place better, but is more prone to abrading the rope when butt-hitching heavy pieces.
kN, I don't remember which part suffered the damage.
I have always understood:
half hitch = half hitch
marl = overhand knot (= marline hitch)
That's how Don Blair described it.
So too Michael Tain here:
http://www.treeservicesmagazine.com/article.php?id=3984
Regardless of nomenclature, I've found that, as you say, the 'overhand' version does stay in place better, but is more prone to abrading the rope when butt-hitching heavy pieces.
kN, I don't remember which part suffered the damage.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
I was told that the bend radius of a half hitch or marl is nearly equivalent to that of a bowline and therefore does nothing for added strength of a system. It does however add security from the knot slipping off the chunk. This was tested on a break machine and the results showed that a running bowline and a hitch and then running bowline broke approximately the same. I don't remember if there was a difference between marl and half hitch.
I have been told the marl is easy to tie and untie your runner, or what ever you prefer is easier to untie when dropping the big wood into it. I've seen a running bowline melt to its self but I've never seen a marl melt to it's self and it takes the brunt if the force for your knot. So I don't know any stats on this topic but i know a marl makes your life eaier later for your groundie.
A question to go with the thread. I've used a couple marls on top of my stilson taking a whole tree in a ginn and and other big wood that is going to swing I figured it couldn't hurt. The question is is there any benifit to using any more than 1 marl?
A question to go with the thread. I've used a couple marls on top of my stilson taking a whole tree in a ginn and and other big wood that is going to swing I figured it couldn't hurt. The question is is there any benifit to using any more than 1 marl?
Norm_Hall
New member
- Location
- Wauconda, (Chicago),IL,USA
Yes, if there is a longitudinal split in the wood. I use as many marls as it takes. I think I've used up to 5 in wood that was split and hollow. Don't have any pics though.
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