What do you do when...

I want this industry to elevate its' game.

I wanted my own ball team to elevate its game and to compete in a league at a high level of play. Yet I never took offense at a scrappy little game played with Wiffle balls and broomsticks. I don't begrudge the landscapers trying to remove a difficult tree with extension ladders and Walmart saws.
 
But dont the hacks then drive down pricing and bidding?

I optimistically think that driving down the prices of tree work isn't such a bad thing. Generally speaking, the cost of tree work correlates to the cost of tree ownership, and it's better for the trees if the cost of tree ownership is low.
 
If you are bothered by being undercut and feel that other companies not wearing PPE is somehow having a negative effect on your own business and image then, that just seems like blaming other people for your own problems.
There will be companies that undercut even though they do supply PPE. For me it's the image of the industry.
 
I'm a firm believer in natural selection......remove all warning signs and regulations; let humanity sort itself out.
Sometimes I wish it would be that simple. The lack of common sense has cost the public for years in creating agencys and regulations and so on. Common sense has kept me alive in all the dangerous work I've done. But I am a sole proprietor and use PPE when appropriate I wear my hi-vis apparel when working near a high traffic area. I also wear head gear when the chance of being struck in the head is possible. I don't wear head gear when on a roof, even though Osha would like to have a different say in it.
It's a hard call when a crew is getting paid by tax dollars to perform municipality work. They should practice the standards laid out before them. Will I stop and say "HEY"? Probably not, unless I see someone in immediate danger. I'd rather not have the hack co. or whoever mark me for future inconveniences.
 
I think that's just a dillusion made up by tcia and the like. Each potential client has their own mental image of tree workers as does each tree worker have their own unique image. Most involved in this work have different ideas about what we should look like. I am 99% sure that I harm the "image of the industry" in the eyes of some. I could care less. I do not want to be part of an outfit that looks just like everyone else's.

If you think about it, the concept is silly. "That other guy doesn't wear a helmet, therefore my image is tainted and I get less money." Nah, I don't buy it.
The image that I speak of is the one that the client perceives. If the other people in the business have an opinion that's nice but not important unless I'm recruiting. But it does effect how we are seen by others and translates to how much money we earn.

That other guy not wearing PPE effects my bottom-line though the cost of insurance. That is a predictive based industry that derives its appraisal of us through statistics not individual performance. They draw a line through past performance of the industry to mitigating of risk onward to rates and modifying by individual compliance to the risk mitigation protocols. That, simply put: they died and injured themselves a lot, have a set of regulations born of that fact, want us to cover them so, what have they done to do anything about all this so we can give them some sort of break on the price. Risk analysis.

When they look at our track record and why these deaths and injuries occur they don't simply say, "RIP, brother" and move along. They look at how the risk could be mitigated (that's reduced btw not prevented). Lo and behold! They find that someone has done just that ; OSHA, ANSI and the industry associations. Now, they have some guidelines as to how a bunch of tree trimmers can reduce the chance of ending up as statistics and consequently an expense to them and others. Again, they don't look at the individual to establish the industry rates. They only do that to modify the rate either way based on how well that individual has performed and if, through compliance to what is agreed as statistically proven strategies, reduced their future risk potential. As we all understand, the longer you are in this game the greater the chance for something going wrong.

When we meet people in the public outside of business hours and when we are not dressed for work that image is what comes to mind when one tells someone they are an arborist/treeguy/treetrimmer/ etc…. A funny thing happens, people draw conclusions about the value of the work. Whether you think so or not, how you dress, act and communicate, create impressions in people's mind and that is based on their value system. If your client's all look, act like you and talk like you then great, no problems. That's your target market. But if they don't then it is.

I prefer to have an overall better image to work from then our baseline value of our service would be higher. Mind you, there is an upside to them being like that, I can stand out against them as a more professional operation and thus worth a higher rate.

But here's another point that may be irrelevant to you, when a company, manager, owner places a higher value on the life of their people, their people perform better.

It's a strange, strange world we live in….
 
Interesting Rob, still I'm not buying it, if the issue with others not working to your standards is about insurance rates. You can mitigate the risk to a certain point, yes. But nobody escapes the realm of the human error or unforeseen tree failure. When I first joined the buzz there was a member who seemed top notch in every way, I looked up to him. I believe that he had a mental error and is no longer among the living. And you yourself, Rob, are a part of the statistics since you had an unforeseen tree failure and busted your ankle, are you not?

As far as the perception of the clientele goes, well, that's all over the map and I personally have never and never plan to dress, talk or act anyway way besides what is natural and feels best to me, especially with in the interest of capital gain. The people I want to work for ideally are able to consciously or at least subconsciously register if you are true and real or.... not.

Again, I think a lot of this is industry dogma brought on and encouraged by the tcia and the likes.
It's only one issue. Once upon a time much was chalked up to human error and beyond control until someone started looking closer at that catchall and found that much could be done and is now done to mitigate (oh and did I mention that means reduce not prevent?) that element of risk. Tree failure unforeseen is a factor but not one beyond our scope though it is beyond the abilities of some in the industry. Often we don't use all the resources, nor even attempt to sell their use to a client. John Ball's current presentation shows a great example of this where a tree failed a week after a visit by an arborist which recommended only a pruning. It's root structure was rotted. Unforeseeable or just not properly evaluated?

As for my own contribution to the statistics, I'm painfully aware. That has been the proof of concept for me. The loss of $50K in income for me personally, the cost of productivity loss to the company, the increase in WC insurance, the continued pain and slow degradation of the injured joint, emotional toll on family, my employer, coworkers, their families, friends, etc…

I could say mine was an unforeseen tree failure but in analyzing the incident I accept that it is the result of human error but, that human was me. What exactly was my error? Was I doomed to repeat it? Could I actually dig a bit deeper to learn and change? The cause of the failure was unseen but not unforeseeable or, was the result preventable. Simply by following a protocol that was established in our standards, I could've avoided the incident. I knew that then so why did I rationalize not abiding by it?

What price did I exact from others without their permission or knowledge? I was humbled by the simple act of my teenaged stepdaughter taking the time out of her busy life of school and work to provide for me. Had I incurred a head or spinal injury what would that have been like for her?

You make my point about clients, in your case you have defined your target demographic. While client's perceptions may be all over the map that has more to do with the lack of definition in the map. They are becoming better and the one's that I want to work with and are those that have a better understanding of the value of their trees and the inherent dangers and challenges associated with our work. They are thus willing to pay for what it really costs to have the work done right and safely with less given over to chance.

TCI and the like are not drivers of the industry just reactors. They don't do things based on a whim but on what the market tells them. Do they try to anticipate, sure! But even that is based on correlation of the past trends to future direction. Like all industry associations, they know that they can only lead a willing membership.
 
The best schooling is in the field. The apprentice days. Whatever happened to that. An ex boss once told me, ''You can read all you want. Books will never do what hands on will do for you." So true. Experiencing what you learn from a master in the field is ten fold .... comparatively.
 
when the pick-up truck, no helmet crew member gets injured do you think that they make a WC claim? I would guess that the answer is typically, no
As you know the accidents that do get reported, willingly or not, are significant. While they may not end up as voluntary WC claims, there are sharp eyed lawyers who follow accident reports at hospitals and follow up on them looking for a client. A previous employer of mine had this happen with a worker that was injured and never reported. Before the statute of limitation ran out the lawyer had a claim filed with the insurer. This opened up a sh'tstorm for the company. If it makes a newscast then it becomes public knowledge and sure enough the insurer's actuaries get a hold of it, claim or not.

As for image, it's a reflection of attitude. Not a 100% predictor but close enough for the statisticians. There are those as you've noted that seem to throw the inexperienced to the wolves but that applies to smaller companies as well. We can find anecdotal evidence to contradict each other but the stats say what the say. Here's a study by Dr. Ball from 2014, https://www.wcisa.net/Post/Documents/John Ball Handout - Big Island.pdf
 
So you're saying that the image of tree workers and insurance rates are the same issue?

I still am not following your logic, Rob. If anything, I would tend to believe a bit of the opposite. Consider this, when the pick-up truck, no helmet crew member gets injured do you think that they make a WC claim? I would guess that the answer is typically, no. I would bet that most claims are for rolled ankles and saw dust in the eye. So how are the renegade dudes bringing up the rates? The most injuries and accidents I've seen happen in tree work was at the only TCIA accredited outfit I've worked for. They were definitely part of the statistics driving higher rates. Sending out young guys with out the proper skills and experience to do high risk work for minimal pay, that's a recipe for accidents. It seems the status quo is to give someone some basic training, armor them up with PPE and then let them know, they're ready for the rodeo.

god damnit Levi i wish there was a way i could repetitively "like" this frickin' post, in particular the second half.
 
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If you count the big box tree service members of TCIA, and by extension their thousands of employees, the scales might feel just a little bit weighted. It calls into question whether safe work cultures already existed in those companies, and then they decided to become members, or whether they were actually rife with unsafe practices until TCIA rescued them from their workplace savagery.
 
It calls into question whether safe work cultures already existed in those companies, and then they decided to become members, or whether they were actually rife with unsafe practices until TCIA rescued them from their workplace savagery.
Probably a bit of both. That's why you still see incidents within their ranks.
 
I've stopped Joe homeowner on several occasions doing stupid stuff. I've never stopped one for not wearing ppe though. Just incidents where I thought I was about to witness a serious injury or fatality. As for "the professional" (defined in my eyes as making a living at it)... I've seen a lot but have never reported them. We are all adults, able to make our own decisions whether it's who I work for or what I wear for ppe. Yes there are laws and standards, but in the end it's our personal decision to follow the rules or risk the consequences.
 
While the argument is all well and good it still rings hollow. As an adult I recognize my actions have consequences far beyond just me. There are my children, wife, grandchildren, mother, brother and sister who may all bear an onerous burden due to my decisions. There's my employer, co-workers and their families. In their case it's the extra financial burden of the insurance claims, no small amount, that can have major ripple effects for a small company. That also plays out in the industry as a whole as well, if I haven't stated that enough times.

But let's just say sure, you're an adult and can make your own decisions. Can you make those decisions for everyone else? As an adult how about doing the mature thing and ask those others if it's ok with them. If they'll be fine with picking up the slack if you're injured temporarily or permanently. You know, washing you, wiping your butt if you can't, feeding you. Or if they'll be ok with you gone altogether?

As an adult, we have responsibilities and obligations, people that depend on us being there in good health. Whose lives and future, hang in the balance of our decisions. Ask them if it's ok to risk that for them.
 
His inner skinny man is trying to get out...
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I get folks points about letting the hacks sort themselves out but I still would like to see the industry step up its game a bit more. Not just in safety either.
 
While the argument is all well and good it still rings hollow. As an adult I recognize my actions have consequences far beyond just me. There are my children, wife, grandchildren, mother, brother and sister who may all bear an onerous burden due to my decisions. There's my employer, co-workers and their families. In their case it's the extra financial burden of the insurance claims, no small amount, that can have major ripple effects for a small company. That also plays out in the industry as a whole as well, if I haven't stated that enough times.

But let's just say sure, you're an adult and can make your own decisions. Can you make those decisions for everyone else? As an adult how about doing the mature thing and ask those others if it's ok with them. If they'll be fine with picking up the slack if you're injured temporarily or permanently. You know, washing you, wiping your butt if you can't, feeding you. Or if they'll be ok with you gone altogether?

As an adult, we have responsibilities and obligations, people that depend on us being there in good health. Whose lives and future, hang in the balance of our decisions. Ask them if it's ok to risk that for them.

I can make the decisions that directly effect me. These decisions may adversely, indirectly or in advertently effect this around me. Those people that spend time with me, love me, and want to spend the rest of their lives with me (sorry for the mushy stuff here) made a decision too. They know who I am, know the risks and decisions I make. They are their for me as I would be for them. You know the way the world used to be! My family is extremely supporting of the things I do, as I am of the things they do. It's a trade off. Sure I could die in a tree, in a fire, on the bus or struck by lightning tomorrow but if I live in fear of what could happen, I'm not living.
All I'm saying is it not my job to live for the hacks, I not my job to live for you as it's not your job to live for me.
Please don't take my response as anti PPE, I firmly believe in it's need, I'm just not the enforcement police.
 
To me, it's your argument that rings hollow, time and time again. It you want to think about the world that way then surely there are many more relevant causes to crusade beyond tree workers wearing PPE.

Talking about the ripple effect of your actions I wonder this, do you feel that your tree service, or any other, has a net gain for the world as a whole?

Of course most adults, I believe, try and be responsible the best they can in a manner they see fit. It's just so subjective, everyone has a different opinion and approach to life, which is what makes the world a beautiful place!

When you see people waiting in line at the MacDonald's drive through do you pull over and tell them that's an irresponsible choice? To be eating fast food? Or how bout when one of your employees fills a 50 gallon tank with diesel fuel, do you tell them that's irresponsible? Because, well, it is.

Ultimately it just seems like a shitty and cold world to live, as I said at the beginning of the thread, to each their own. What makes you, or anyone feel so self important to the point where you feel justified in telling other people how to live or work is way beyond me.
Let's put this in context. I did speak out to some workers in my town where I'm an Environmental Commissioner with oversight of the tree work. So, yeah I did say something. Do I drive around berating crews as I come upon them, no. I've spoken up about it here because I, like you, have an opinion about it.

As for the ripple effect of the tree service, it is something I think about and make an effort to balance the impact. Yeah, I work on that, tree planting, river clean ups, volunteering on a board for an environmental advocacy organization. Do you?

I'm outnumbered by overweight Americans so, the McD's thing is a no go. Had an employee fill a diesel tank with gas, did have something to say about that. but I'm realistic about the diesel use.

You seem to think I run around railing against this. Nah, it's a pretty warm world.
 

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