what are you worth

HOLLENREICH, maybe you should run that chip on your shoulder through the chipper a few more times to make it smaller. Do you refer to your crew and clients as bud, son, chief ect. as regular as you do on the buzz? Some might find that demeaning, others immature. I don’t know you so I really have nothing to base my opinion of you on except our few digital interactions here, where you seem angry and have referred to me as son, and someone else as bud. As far a I know, I am neither of yours, especially the son.

Before I turn into Dr. Phil- back to the topic. There are plenty of people who are a huge success that are without credentials and letters after their name. They have a great attitude and outlook on life. Street smarts and experience are just as valuable, if not more, than credentials. When I graduated from High school, which wasn't that long ago- 17 years, the thought was that you would go nowhere if you didn’t have a college degree. Now, I don’t think a Masters would really get you that far. I am not going to push my kids either way. My hope is that I can help them find success by whatever means the times allow- degree, credentials, or just plain luck What’s in a mans character is what he is worth. Pride in self and work, ethics and morals, the ability to communicate with people from all walks of life. The ISA’s certification programs should be looked at as a base line for an arborist who wants personal growth in a career that can be quite lucrative, not a badge that says you’re not certified so your opinion doesn’t count. You have to put effort in after the test results say pass. I once had an employer who was a CA, a fact that still bewilders me, who would wait until the last minute to complete his CEU’s because “those seminars are snakeoil” I even heard him ask the ISA if he could buy some CEU’s. I think he passed the test in its infancy, and knows he couldn’t now. What a hack. But he’s “certified” If you’re doing the job right, not out there hacking it up, certified on not you’re ok in my book. It is the jackasses that are ripping innocent customers off giving hardworking arborists a bad name that I can’t stand.
 
lol!! there is no chip on my shoulder. You won't see me posting here how great a climber, or how fast I am, or that I always make perfect cuts. I let my real life speak for me, Have ya been to Kentucky, the show me state. As for the bud,son,and cheif, sometimes even say captain, yea I use them terms losely with my crew members and others I talk to. Most young guys I even call young buck, or jr woodchuck. Demeaning or immature?, nope never had anyone say or cry about it, not even my boss. Customers nah most time say Mam or Sir, I was raised in the south and we tend to have better manners than the North. Why? Does it hurt your feels? Tell me and I'll try to refrain from using them should I post to you.

Now back to the post I started this for the fact I wanted to see what others offered peeps without certs, but all I got was somke blown up my ya yo. I had tried out for a job did well but the money offered was lite, but I was told if I had my certs, or if I'd go get them, that I would be payed what I had asked. Now to me it is just away to low ball you, cause, he basically said I was worth the money but that I needed the certs to get it. Anyhow it's all water under the bridge. I have nothing bad to say about the company and i really had a good time the 3 days I worked there. Just have a bad taste in my mouth for the certs, when I see NJCTE and ISA holders in Morristown (south) out topping and spiking live trees to just prune. I do plan to give in and go get them just for the fact that I too can have a bigger say in what is happing in this feild.
 
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Before I turn into Dr. Phil- back to the topic. There are plenty of people who are a huge success that are without credentials and letters after their name. They have a great attitude and outlook on life. Street smarts and experience are just as valuable, if not more, than credentials. When I graduated from High school, which wasn't that long ago- 17 years, the thought was that you would go nowhere if you didn’t have a college degree. Now, I don’t think a Masters would really get you that far. I am not going to push my kids either way. My hope is that I can help them find success by whatever means the times allow- degree, credentials, or just plain luck What’s in a mans character is what he is worth. Pride in self and work, ethics and morals, the ability to communicate with people from all walks of life. The ISA’s certification programs should be looked at as a base line for an arborist who wants personal growth in a career that can be quite lucrative, not a badge that says you’re not certified so your opinion doesn’t count. You have to put effort in after the test results say pass. I once had an employer who was a CA, a fact that still bewilders me, who would wait until the last minute to complete his CEU’s because “those seminars are snakeoil” I even heard him ask the ISA if he could buy some CEU’s. I think he passed the test in its infancy, and knows he couldn’t now. What a hack. But he’s “certified” If you’re doing the job right, not out there hacking it up, certified on not you’re ok in my book. It is the jackasses that are ripping innocent customers off giving hardworking arborists a bad name that I can’t stand.

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Amen to that Brother!(can I call you brother?)
 
Pancake, when someone says they have x number of years of experience I wonder if it's their first year repeated x number of times. The acquisition and application of knowledge, most commonly demonstrated by the accumulation of industry certifications and awards, community involvement, advisory roles and a strong list of loyal customers clearly shows a deep commitment to their craft. Sure there are jerks out there that do all that to stoke their egos but you'll spot them. As for sales being a double-edged sword, that goes for most everything. If we dedicate ourselves to be not only the best arborist but also the best sales person in our field then we achieve greater reward. Too often, and I know from my own experience, we shy away from taking on the sales role to avoid the risk of being branded a "Salesman".... But without sales a company is not in control of it's own destiny.
 
I know alot of very good tree guys. Once they became certified, they became better tree guys. CEUs, if taken with a thirst for knowlege, will benifit you. How many work shops on felling, rigging, or climbing has the uncertified tree guy taken. Thats right, he's still working on knowlege from his first few years.
 
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I let my real life speak for me, Have ya been to Kentucky, the show me state.

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FYI, I am from Tennessee, born and raised- which last time I checked was a few degrees south of Kentucky which is the Bluegrass State. Missouri is the Show me State. Call me whatever you want, I have been called worse assuredly. My last name came a really thick skin for name calling and the like. I just find it humurous when those terms are used so liberally towards the unknowing public.

I resisted a sales position at first because the previous salesman was a real tool, made all the customers gunshy. I accepted a modified sales position, when I am on the PHC rig, and it is a challenge to learn how to speak to customers and find out what they need to feel comfortable with me. I have a really well rounded position now, climber, sales, phc, whatever the boss needs. It is a challenge doing them all good, never mind great. There is so much new information out there, and the innovations are moving so fast, how could you not want to keep learning? I think I have all the credentials I need for now, BCMA may happen down the road, who knows. Right now I don't think that an advanced Arboricultural degree would really push me to the next level. I would like to teach one day, maybe at our local High Schools Arboriculture Program, then I would need more formal sit down education. I like doing CEU work, never has bothered me. I also really enjoy volunteering at the High School, or with local Arborist activities. I just like what I do.
 
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Pancake, when someone says they have x number of years of experience I wonder if it's their first year repeated x number of times.

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Could very well be. Maybe they want the experience and just don't know how to get it. Or they are afraid they will be ridiculed by co workers for becomming to booksmart. Maybe they are impatient. I wish I had more experience all the time, would make all those hard lessons much easier. On mistakes, my boss always looks long term, learn from it and try not to repeat it. I have a meager 7 years in the professional tree worker world, a drop in the bucket. That being said, I have met so many who have advanced my knowledge simply because I showed interest. 3 years ago I couldn't splice, now I think I am fairly proficient at it. My wife still laughs at my first try at footlocking, 30 feet in 30 minutes. Now I am at 50 feet in 25 seconds on a good day. My biggest chalenge is my attitude, and not trying to be more than I am, to have x amount more experience than I do.
 
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Pancake, when someone says they have x number of years of experience I wonder if it's their first year repeated x number of times.


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Could very well be. Maybe they want the experience and just don't know how to get it. Or they are afraid they will be ridiculed by co workers for becomming to booksmart.

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yea it's the same first year with different companies, funny how the last one I refused was willing to pay the money they just wanted the certs. Should I go get them. But I can stay where I am make what I want and go get the certs and get the same rasies on top of the money I want. As far as scared of booksmarts, not likly for to keep up on the new fast pasted ever changing tree care. I have to read or I can always take a ceu class, they are open to all you don't have to be cert to go to them. I always try to keep myself informed on the new ideas, and tech. Heck I rember back in 85 when 3 strand rope was like the top climbing line used. And topping a tree was not considered shady work it was considered an art, to be able to top a tree to a healthy latteral and retain a symetrical shape was a tallent in itself. Seems crown reduction is of the same type work but less radical. Anways I could go on and on with this if u'd like just pm me.

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Sure there are jerks out there that do all that to stoke their egos but you'll spot them.

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case in piont maybe?

All I ever see from you treehummper, is you tring to belittle people. Trust me being in NJ your certs don't mean that much to the buyer. Sad anit it, maybe your in a better area where the scabs anit so thick but with lean times ahead you'll see more. And prob see some of your loyal buyers choose the cheaper non cert guy. I'am seeing it happen in our area alot more. Like I've said before I'm not against certs or any type of training so take your pompus [bad word] to all of them, Just remember NAA used to be free, ISA charges for everything, NAA tried to teach to improve the work, ISA teaches for the pay check. Are you old enough to know what NAA is? I'm against the tactics of the employer to use them as raises, when a climber gets a buck an hour and a sales rep gets an extra 20,000 a year for the same cert.

Maybe you can enlighten me on how NJCTE in said town before, go around topping, and spiking and still remain CTE. Now I know these couple of companies have been reported before, What this so called by you, first year rookie would like to know?
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Is how are they still CTE when they have rules that they could lose their CTE for doing said type of work?

Anyways shame on me for the state mixup pancake, and I never use those names as name calling it's all done in fun at work, should I notice that one gets mad over them I always stop using them. Really, sometimes people take [bad word] to seriuos. But then I guess you never joke around a work once you put your arborist hat on, Do you become an up tight stick in the mud?
 
No, I joke around quite alot, we all do. We know each other, know our next moves and how we're feeling that day, or week for that matter. I'm just bringing up a personal irritation, nothing against you- your just looking for answers. When I worked for the utility I spent years arguing with people about why we weren't going to top their tree again like we had for the past 30 years- they just didn't want to hear is, especially from some smart [bad word] certified arborist, utility specailist- I don't care about that either, my grandaddy topped trees for years. Then I learned new tactics. Learned how to make them see it my way. My last few months there were productive and enjoyable. Maybe you could approach these prospective employers that way, what do you need in an employee? Here is the experience I can offer you now, and this is what I would expect in return as I get credentials to better myself and your company. Research the financial facts, the benefits and potential missed benefits for you, weigh them, and then deceide. There is a lot on the line for the right employer. Training a new employee is a big expence, and if you have the experience that you say, htey should recognize that. Surely they would be willing to reward you if you were willing to make an extra effort to get some certifications. For someone like you, 20+ years in, should be no problem.
 
I'm in Bergen/Hudson/Essex County and there are plenty of scabs. It is an ongoing complaint of many businesses here. My post about the repetition of the first year of someone's experience wasn't targeted at you or anyone here but as a concern expressed by those that do hiring in ANY industry. I come to this industry like you through experience not education. Education has come after. I am working on my CA as it will open up business opportunities that are, like it or not, closed to those without. Belittling? hmmmmmm, sorry you see it that way. I'm amazed by the depth of experience and knowledge that is represented here and have learned much from those who come here and share that with us all. I try to add to the discussions and may at times challenge some. I'll certainly take to heart your perception and preview my posts for the bias.

Oh and sales is rewarded by commissions. They could work all day and not make a dime. Owners are in the same boat but the guy (like me) who climbs gets paid every day I show up to work.
 
These "scabs" are in every walk of life unfortunately. That is why there are avenues available for us to seperate our skills and knowledge. But we should always be willing to open doors and help those willing to commit to bettering themselves and our industry. I think there will always be a segment of the population that is looking to hire the cutthroats- it is their way if interpreting value, wierd I know.
 
So true pancake. Every field has it's high price boutique shops, middle market, low cost providers, and underground. We decide where we'll fit in then strive to maintain our position there.

It was through an arborist who was willing to give me a chance to grow in this industry that I got in. To him I owe a big thanks.
 
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We decide where we'll fit in then strive to maintain our position there.

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Why stop there, find out how your clients interpret value and grow. Both your company and your finances.
 
good point pancake. It does come down to business planning. Defining your market and growing it means just what you said, understanding your client's value proposition and then delivering it.
 
No need to grow to fast and risk delivery of less than par services to the existing base that got you there. Make sure you are providing the most services possible to each client.
 
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No need to grow to fast and risk delivery of less than par services to the existing base that got you there. Make sure you are providing the most services possible to each client.

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Great point Pancake, but I'd have to possibly disagree with you on the "providing the most services possible"

If you mean doing what it takes and making sure that you meet your customer's needs, even if that means subbing out work or pointing them to a provider who can then Yes, I agree.

But if you mean providing all the services yourself, then we might have some difference of opinion.

Planned and controlled growth and expansion of your product offerings is generally good, provided it is balanced by the principle of doing a few things well vs. doing a lot of things marginally. (Jack of all trades, master of none, disaster of many)

I think TH touched on this earlier.

There are several services that our company is capable of providing but are either not in a position yet to offer, or are not part of our service focus.

Over the years that has included such things as stump grinding, new installation of trees, fertilizer and pesticide application.

There are enough times, however, that such services are desired/required by our customers where it behooves us to find solutions to meet their needs and to offer them some choices.

Case in point would be how we have handled stumps. In looking back at our sales, fewer than 10% of our customers consider stump grinding even though we ask all of them if they want the stumps out.

When a customer does want the stumps out it is usually a bunch bunch of stumps or one huge one. Nothing a cheap grinder would be able to handle efficiently or cost effectively.

We don't have enough volume therefore to justify the $$$ to buy the machine but we do have a need to meet.

That said, we have come up with a couple of options we can offer.

First we suggest that if they are in no major hurry we can do the stump when we do our next "batch." We explain that we batch process our stumps once we have a dozen or so and that happens every 5 to 8 weeks. Since we don't own the machine we rent one and send our crew to do the work and the customer sees continuity of care.

If they are in a hurry we offer to bring in our specialist subcontractor who does nothing but stumps but can be there within 72 hours. We explain that his availability might run quite a bit more $$$ than our price.

We often also suggest that it may be within thier own ability to do such work themselves if they are inclined to do so.

It amazes me how many customers would love to do more for their trees on their own but need just a little education and confidence in their abilities. In fact, we encourage our customers to find ways they can be more active in thier own tree work without compromising thier safety.

The overall point being our goal is to help the customer get thier work done right and in a budget friendly way.

Remember the old cliche, People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care!?

By putting the customer's needs first, even if you are not the one who will do the work and get paid, you will impress upon them that you do care about them and thier trees. And that care is the foundation of any good, long term, business relationship.

It is called TRUST and without it we're all dead in the water.
 
Well stated Rick,

It is a business decision as to what services you offer. Sometimes it's hard to say no to the revenue but in the end it keeps you on track to managing the brand you are building. Whether it's stump grinding or difficult inaccessible removals. Someone I do sub work for does nothing but ravine naturalization. He's been approached to do landscaping but, while he has the staff and expertise, it falls outside of his focus. His branding has lead to him being seen as the go to guy for his work.
 
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No need to grow to fast and risk delivery of less than par services to the existing base that got you there. Make sure you are providing the most services possible to each client.

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Great point Pancake, but I'd have to possibly disagree with you on the "providing the most services possible"

If you mean doing what it takes and making sure that you meet your customer's needs, even if that means subbing out work or pointing them to a provider who can then Yes, I agree.

Planned and controlled growth and expansion of your product offerings is generally good, provided it is balanced by the principle of doing a few things well vs. doing a lot of things marginally. (Jack of all trades, master of none, disaster of many)

There are enough times, however, that such services are desired/required by our customers where it behooves us to find solutions to meet their needs and to offer them some choices.

The overall point being our goal is to help the customer get thier work done right and in a budget friendly way.

Remember the old cliche, People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care!?

It is called TRUST and without it we're all dead in the water.

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I believe we are on the same page. A better way to put it would be making sure te client is taken care of, and happy.

We sub out quite a bit happily. Stumping, log loading, etc.
 
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