War for water

It's no big deal, everyone of God's religions have been tested lately, the irony of going to see where Jesus was born and being kept away by Zionists on one side and Muslims on the other seem to negate the importance and validity of either.

They are all right, and at the same time, all wrong.
 
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We must never forget that the Holocaust happened.

Thats what makes it so frightening and cold blooded.....the systematic slaughter of a race.


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The above quotes are my words.

I reckon you guys just have an issue with the terminology?

By 'the Holocaust' I mean the mass murder of Jews and other persecuted groups such as gypsies and homosexuals under the Nazi regime.

As for my use of the word 'race'I was trying to convey a group of people - with cultural and social differences.

I understand your pettyness about the use of the word 'race' glens, it has been responsible for misunderstandings between people in the past.

But there are basic subdivisions of the human race - Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negroid.

I assume this is what you mean by race?
 
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It's no big deal, everyone of God's religions have been tested lately, the irony of going to see where Jesus was born and being kept away by Zionists on one side and Muslims on the other seem to negate the importance and validity of either.

They are all right, and at the same time, all wrong.

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Oakwilt, are you an Atheist? Agnostic?
 
The main issue I have with the way it gets "remembered" is that it's skewed both in what/why actually happened and against whom it was directed. Both to a definite goal with which I take issue in itself.
 
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The main issue I have with the way it gets "remembered" is that it's skewed both in what/why actually happened and against whom it was directed. Both to a definite goal with which I take issue in itself.

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glens,

Perhaps I can help you understand a certain truth about the Nazis of which you seem to be wholly unaware.

The Nazis saw nothing wrong in subjecting members of what they considered to be inferior populations to the most horrifying experiments; and there can be little doubt that had the outcome of the Second World War been different, the use of humans for scientific experiments would have been institutionalized across Europe.

No doubt it would have been condemned by a dedicated few, but the historical experience of occupied Europe suggests that the majority of the population would have accepted the practice.

Would you be ok with this?

You are starting to sound like a member of a far right political party who is casting doubt on the reality of the Holocaust and the authenticity of the mountains of evidence which show that these terrifying horrors happened.
 
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I recall in high school (late '70s) seeing film footage of a man wearing a German officer's uniform shooting a mangy prisoner-looking dude in the head with a pistol resulting in the guy falling into an open pit evidently containing a bunch of folks who'd gone before him. I wondered to myself "why would anyone film that?" I also wondered if it wasn't actually taken after the Russians overran the Germans; maybe like they'd donned the captured uniforms and picked up the captured cameras to create some propaganda. It wasn't until years later that I discovered other folks also thought maybe it was (in part?) a grand hoax. Not to mention that Stalin had pretty much buried in mass graves many more people than Hitler was supposed to have exterminated, but I guess that didn't result in the forcible creation of a new homeland in the middle east so it wasn't important. I find it suspect that just about the time the general public might be showing signs of forgetting "The Holocaust" some new memorial or such gets broad news coverage. I'm not saying I think nobody died; just that I highly doubt it was actually what's been made of it.

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So, Glens, how many Jews died in the Holocaust, best guess?
 
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but I guess that didn't result in the forcible creation of a new homeland in the middle east so it wasn't important.

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European colonial holdings, given, over time, @ 2% to the Jews, not a new homeland, but a 3000 year plus homeland (read your bible!), @ 98% to Muslims. Intolerable!

I think I get the gist of it. Jews, having not invaded, slaughtered, brutalized for thousands of years, somehow exagerated a rather insignificant little genocide, a very convenient, timely episode, into a great opportunity to brutalize, slaughter, invade. How cunning!
 
"Ever hear the notion expressed that history is written by the victorious? Think there might be some grain of truth to the opposing (losing, suppressed) viewpoint?
Question everything."

So, I guess the Jews were the victors in World War II.

"Read your Bible and you'll (should) quickly discover that being "Jewish" is most certainly not a racial thing. Anyone can become a "Jew" (barring the technicality that the covenant no longer exists; again, see your Bible) and anyone can cease being one. It matters not one whit their racial heritage. Do you envision there being no "Jews" "holocausted" who looked and sounded exactly like those doing the "holocausting"? Were they all "racially" distinguishable from the (typical) "master race" individual?"

I think Hitler was happy to kill Jews, whether one defined them as a racial/ethnic group (ever hear of Tay-Sachs?) or as a religious one. (You seem to think that, what, blond haired, blue eyed Jews were all over the place?) I think his obsession, though, was with the genetic/racial/ethnic. But even if it wasn't, what is your point? That he was slaughtering the babies of the Jews on some kind of principled, theological basis?
 
Fred, you really need to read carefully what I've written; I don't believe there are any major grammatical errors. To answer some of your questions:

"It" refers to the "event", not to quantities.

God himself took their homeland from them in the wars of the 0070s (see Hebrews chapter 8 [particularly noting the last verse]; 1 Corinthians 10:11 [never forget to read the context in any of these]; Matthew 24 [and corresponding passages in Mark and Luke]; and 20-23 in the final chapter of John -- hint: the grownups contemporary with Jesus would see the new covenant start and the old covenant end and they would live in the overlapping "ends"). Is it correct for man to take it upon himself (collectively) to reverse that? (rhetorical question) The "end of the world" spoken of in the Bible is the "world" of the Israelites having a kingdom/homeland/special_covenant_with_God. The book of Revelation was written prior to and accurately describes that event which most definitely and definitively occurred long ago.

Not to categorize all of them, but [some of] the Jews have long ago learned to overtake nations without invasion, etc. I reiterate again that I am not declaring animosity in any way, shape, or form when I say this stuff; merely stating facts. [Who is it, as a group if it were one, that owns or controls the major media/entertainment/financial organizations pretty much worldwide?]

Particularly, in this context, there is/was a thing called the Jewish Question. Hitler, et. al. eventually derived a Final Solution to it [note the quote which contains "Regarding the Jewish question, the Führer is determined to clear the table. He warned the Jews that if they were to cause another world war, it would lead to their own destruction. Those were not empty words. Now the world war has come. The destruction of the Jews must be its necessary consequence."] Carefully read the text of that first article. They were initially "invited" to leave and it progressed in steps from there when they balked.

I'm not siding with him/them. Just stating facts. Should have been born Swiss, I guess. In my studies, which include both mainstream and "extremist" sources, I've come across the notion that, being saddled with the debt from the first world war, Hitler told the international bankers to stuff it. He printed up tons of paper money to pay them off (remember hearing tales of German wives fetching their husband's pay several times a day to buy things with it while they could, and folks essentially carrying wheelbarrows of "money" around?) The banks didn't take it lightly. Pretty soon much of Europe lay in piles of rubble and was available for pennies on the dollar. Do you honestly think there's no possible truth whatsoever, not even the tiniest shred, to that scenario? I for one cannot totally dismiss it.

Suffice it to say that were I living in Germany in the '40s I'd have undoubtedly been "relocated" because of my heritage on my mother's side even though I am literally/technically not a Jew. See the attachment. I could not possibly have been the only person there/then with the same combination of credentials and characteristics.

Read my lips. I really, really don't care to discuss this here any further. The only reason for this reply is to clear the air that I'm not an extremist in any direction. I'm totally independent and not affiliated in any way, shape, or form with any individuals or organizations who are or could be characterized as either extreme or mainstream. I attempt to glean the truth from all sources (they all contain some) and develop my opinions from my private research.

Over and out.
 

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God himself took their homeland from them in the wars of the 0070s (see Hebrews chapter 8 [particularly noting the last verse]; 1 Corinthians 10:11 [never forget to read the context in any of these]; Matthew 24 [and corresponding passages in Mark and Luke]; and 20-23 in the final chapter of John -- hint: the grownups contemporary with Jesus would see the new covenant start and the old covenant end and they would live in the overlapping "ends"). Is it correct for man to take it upon himself (collectively) to reverse that? (rhetorical question) The "end of the world" spoken of in the Bible is the "world" of the Israelites having a kingdom/homeland/special_covenant_with_God. The book of Revelation was written prior to and accurately describes that event which most definitely and definitively occurred long ago.


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Its very interesting to see you use the bible as a source of historical fact when there is most definitely and definitively no proof that the aforementioned events took place.

Anyway..........Another factor in Hitler's hatred of Jews...... There is a long standing Christian tradition of blaming Jews as Christ-killers. In a speech in Munich in 1923, Hitler said, 'The first thing to do is rescue Germany from the Jew who is ruining our country...We want to prevent our Germany from suffering, as Another did, the death upon the cross.'

Also from Hitler's Mein Kampf: Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.' .

Hitler's Christian credentials were dubious to say the least but he never formally renounced his Catholicism.
 
Not only did he refuse to renounce, the Church was squarely behind his Putsch.

Goggle Hitler and the Church and see some amazing associations. It's like Rumsfeld and Saddam, along the same lines.
 
I'll entertain a tangent.

Most definitely definitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Jerusalem,_AD_70

Not using the bible as a source of historic fact beyond the predictions in it, which are quite verifiably correct unless misunderstood (see below). Not much religious these days but have studied the book and may other writings over the years. Very few people I know who care about such things agree with me about much of it. Go figure...

Probably 99 out of 100 people who call themselves Christians and actually care about it seem to believe a Judaized version in that both groups (mostly) proclaim the messiah will come one day and restore the kingdom of Israel here on earth.

He already came and returned; just as and how he said he would. I guess they're all missing out on something.

Anyway, there is no more true Judaism since then. The Temple was central and it has been removed from service forever. If they were to rebuild one it would have no more (true religious) significance than any other edifice man has put together in the name of religion. There is / will be no more "old" covenant.

Don't know much about the Koran but have been through a bit of the Book of Mormon. The latter reads like comic book version of the Bible and contains many things right off the bat which in no way could possibly be correct in relation to it. I guess those who call themselves Jews probably feel much the same way about the New Testament in terms regarding veracity.

That's probably why we'll continue to have wars; both over religion and water.

[edit] Almost forgot. No true Christian who reads and believes the Bible would call today's Jews "Christ-killers". It was supposed to be that way and those who did the deed were specifically set up to do it and punished for it (see above). Also, those who read, understand, and believe would see precious little to support most aspects of most all "religious" Christianity as is practiced.
 
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Not only did he refuse to renounce, the Church was squarely behind his Putsch.


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Thats not true Oakwilt, many priests that decided to stand against the Nazis were murdered.

It would be incorrect and disrespectful to deny this.
 
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1. That's probably why we'll continue to have wars; both over religion and water.

2. [edit] Almost forgot. No true Christian who reads and believes the Bible would call today's Jews "Christ-killers". It was supposed to be that way and those who did the deed were specifically set up to do it and punished for it (see above). Also, those who read, understand, and believe would see precious little to support most aspects of most all "religious" Christianity as is practiced.

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Point 1 - wars are fought over resources. Religion and politics just provide a catalyst.

Slight tangent - hope you dont mind!

Your use of the term 'true Christian' is very interesting.

Point 2 - Christianity claims that there is only one true faith, so it gives a supreme value to truth.

The long delayed consequence of Christian faith is an idolatry of truth that has found its most complete expression in atheism. The search for 'truth' has led us to atheism.

The strange thing is 'true Christians' and atheists are declining together.
.....atheists say they want a secular world, but a world defined by the absence of the Christian' god is still a Christian world.

People are just living in a virtual reality now, talking to each other on the internet(sometimes having great conversations) and watching reality TV. They're our new gods.
smirk.gif
 
Knowing that individual priests were vocal against Hitler, the church itself wasn't. It was 1996 before the Pope officially apologized to the world, for the Vatican's "complacency" to the Third Reich.

Catholicism operated unimpeded and realized great wealth under Hitler.

On another note:
http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=801

A re-write of science seems to go along with a bastardization of history, all thanks to the more active of the Christian church's fundamental membership.
 
Aw c'mon guys. You just know the Grand Canyon was formed less than 6,000 years ago while the Great Flood was draining; right? :)
 
And people think drug abuse and Nintendo are responsible for the "dumbing-down of America?"

Sure wouldn't want to fly on a commercial aircraft with either a Christian or an Islamic fundamentalist as the pilot.

When the Ross Ice Shelf breks loose, will that be an angry God or the idiocy of man? (believing we're supposed to be created in his image, I'd say it will be both).
 

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