'Urgent Rescue' Question?

TC

TC

Participating member
\'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Someone comes running up to you saying a woman has fallen 40ft straight down a disused mineshaft, the woman can shout up to you, but needs medical help asap.

All you have is your pickup and climbing/rigging kit and two groundsmen. Specialist vertical rescue/caving teams are 3 hours away or more your in an isolated area.

You can get your pickup right up to the mineshaft hole which is about 5 ft wide.

How you gonna get her out with the skills and techniques you have on you right there and then.

Just outline the basic steps
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Swiss seat and two longer loops for the arms and waist. snap in a beaner and clip on to a rigging line and haul up. Just a quick on the spot thought, thanks to a little millitary training for fast exfill.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Why is the rescue urgent? You may not be helping by taking her out without a stable spine situation that can be helped with a backboard and cervical spine collar.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

[ QUOTE ]
... You may not be helping by taking her out without a stable spine situation that can be helped with a backboard and cervical spine collar.

[/ QUOTE ]

A pickup's tailgate would make a fine backboard.

Dave
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Need to consider air quality at bottom of hole. More often than not the would be rescuer becomes victim #2. Also very good point about possible spinal injuries and moving victim is worst case scenario.

Chris
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

[ QUOTE ]
Need to consider air quality at bottom of hole. More often than not the would be rescuer becomes victim #2. Also very good point about possible spinal injuries and moving victim is worst case scenario.

Chris

[/ QUOTE ]

Air quality is ABSOLUTELY an issue !

55 yrs ago, a fellow in my neighborhood, went unconscious in a 30 ft hole.
A Rescuer went down for the rescue; he became unconscious.
Then a second rescuer went after the first 2.

All three (3) died. (sewer gas)

Just because the victim is conscious doesn't mean that the air is safe for a 30 - 60 min.+ rescue

Ciao.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Confined space rescue is something that should be left to people with the proper training and equipment. There are to many things that can go wrong. A rescue of this kind is not simple and can be very risky and it is not quick. In the spring the vol fire company, i run with, completed a confined space rescue tech course. In these classes we had to prove that we understand the concepts they taught us by performing a "simple" above ground rescue. Between air monitoring gearing up and insuring the area was safe to enter the rescue took upwards of an hour and a half. You can not allow the rescue to become personal to you because that is when you do something stupid and now you have to wait three hrs for the rescue team to recover your body and hers. I wouldn't want my local lawn service coming to rescue me out of a tree, this one as well is better left to the trained rescue team with the right equipment. Imo
 
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[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't want my local lawn service coming to rescue me out of a tree

[/ QUOTE ]

Bam. Leave it to the pros
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

I recognize the training firefighters and rescuers have but I'm not the type to dial 911 and wait.
Yes there are tons of things that can go wrong but one can size up a situation and factor out many of those. A well equipped tree guy with a reasonable amount of experience is well suited to vertical rescue. You have factor in that it's not Joe Schmoe just coming onto the scene. It's someone who deals with risk and difficulty every day. It's not the lawn guy.

I paddle whitewater, I used to be good enough to paddle most any river at stupidly high levels. I was doing that one week, paddling a river in 20 year flood with my partner, an ER physician.

We got down to an access point where there were at least 40 firefighters and rescuers and incident commanders waving us off because a rescue was under way... It had been for about 6 hours.
Nobody could get to two freezing boneheads that thought the flood would make for a good float trip. An Army helo was attempting to extract them using a rescue swimmer.

It was cold and windy and the PJ was seriously injured when the chopper drug him through a bunch of broken trees. Another help/swimmer was summoned. Long story short, it took 8 hours to get those guys out and one ended up swimming anyway.

Chris and I could have had both of them out of there in 30 minutes, they were only 40' from shore. We both had whitewater rescue training. It would have been routine. But no, the professionals did it their way. Fine, no skin off my nose but the resources expended was ridiculous.

Firefighters are bound by protocol anddeep pocket liability. I'm not so I can work more efficiently. Plus, I know when I'm licked. If I can't get her out I know the cavalry is on the way, and when they get there, if they have the sense to listen, I'll have assessment information for them.

I can't, not act, in an emergent situation like that.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

[ QUOTE ]
Start off by hollering down "It puts the lotion on its skin."

[/ QUOTE ]


applaudit.gif
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Start off by hollering down "It puts the lotion on its skin."

[/ QUOTE ]

"or, it gets the hose again"


applaudit.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

[ QUOTE ]
I recognize the training firefighters and rescuers have but I'm not the type to dial 911 and wait.
Yes there are tons of things that can go wrong but one can size up a situation and factor out many of those. A well equipped tree guy with a reasonable amount of experience is well suited to vertical rescue. You have factor in that it's not Joe Schmoe just coming onto the scene. It's someone who deals with risk and difficulty every day. It's not the lawn guy.

I paddle whitewater, I used to be good enough to paddle most any river at stupidly high levels. I was doing that one week, paddling a river in 20 year flood with my partner, an ER physician.

We got down to an access point where there were at least 40 firefighters and rescuers and incident commanders waving us off because a rescue was under way... It had been for about 6 hours.
Nobody could get to two freezing boneheads that thought the flood would make for a good float trip. An Army helo was attempting to extract them using a rescue swimmer.

It was cold and windy and the PJ was seriously injured when the chopper drug him through a bunch of broken trees. Another help/swimmer was summoned. Long story short, it took 8 hours to get those guys out and one ended up swimming anyway.

Chris and I could have had both of them out of there in 30 minutes, they were only 40' from shore. We both had whitewater rescue training. It would have been routine. But no, the professionals did it their way. Fine, no skin off my nose but the resources expended was ridiculous.

Firefighters are bound by protocol anddeep pocket liability. I'm not so I can work more efficiently. Plus, I know when I'm licked. If I can't get her out I know the cavalry is on the way, and when they get there, if they have the sense to listen, I'll have assessment information for them.

I can't, not act, in an emergent situation like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

As a career FF/medic there are a couple of things I would like to point out in response to Blinky's post.

The first thing that comes to mind is all the posts I read from the pro tree guys telling the rookie to hire a pro to fell a tree. The rookie will post about a tree near a house, but he thinks he can fell it since he has run a chainsaw for a couple of years bucking firewood. Everyone jumps on his back and tells him to hire someone or mocks him for even asking.

Now, I agree he should not fell the tree if there is any type of risk, ie. the house. The same is true for the rescue.
The problem with a rescue is the would be rescuer does not have the time to think about the risks involved, they just have to act.

Blinky - have you ever pulled someone from freezing water before when they were in a panic mode? I have no doubt that you could have paddled your boat to the victim and could have held the boat steady, but what about the fact the victim is freaking out and is not thinking rationally.
He could very easily tip your boat while trying to get in and now you are a victim as well.

As to the original sceniaro (person down hole) no doubt you could easily get to the person with your rope knowledge and other skills but with no way to monitor the air you could easily become a victim.

There are many situations where people make a rescue and things go well and everyone is ok, but there are just as many that go the other way and the amount of victims are increased.

My job is to risk my life to save other people, but at the end of the day I have a family I would like to see the next morning, if someone can wait a little bit to make sure it is done right then I have no problem with that.

Sorry about the ramblings.

Chris
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Lacky I agree 100% with you, there are just too many things that arborists don't look at every day that could go wrong.
Blinky, I'm the same way standing around waiting while someone is hurt sucks. But if you go down in that holeyou won't know that you are in over your head until its too late. Then you just doubled the work the rescue crews have to do. And now to add insult to injury the lady now has to stay in the bottom of the hole till they get you out of the way. Possibly compounding the issues she may have.
My suggestion would be to call 911 and the when rescue crews arrive offer your assistance. A good IC will look at you as a helpful resource because of all the things you mentioned. They will just insure it is safe for you to proceed.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Points taken. You guys both are of course, right. I don't dispute what you're saying.

But I'm telling you that, faced with someone in need of emergency help and me having a measure of confidence that I can provide it, I will, knowing all the above to be true, start a rescue. It wouldn't be a choice, I would HAVE to do it.

And just for clarity, I've done WSI and practiced scenarios with panicked victims and stuff. That kind of gets back to my point that most skilled arborists have a pretty damn good rescue toolbox. We tend to be versatile, tour de force types. I'll wager that lots of people on here have training like WEMT, First Responder, WSI, etc. It's just the nature of tree guys. We like to know about this stuff.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

I think you guys get what Chip is saying but I'll say it a different way... tree climbers are constantly doing risk assessment on a daily basis. When confronted with the person in a hole scenario, the hypothetical tree climber rescuer is going to engage those same risk assessment skills, they have a very good chance of doing the right thing, whether it's do something or do nothing.

There's also a middle path, for example a skilled climber can prepare the area for the rescue team, locate anchors, clear hazards etc. there's many ways to be helpful and experienced tree climbers have the skills to make good decisions on how they can be helpful.

Think of how many "civilians" have successfully pulled individuals from burning car wrecks, saving the victims lives. This is an intangible, no one knows how they'll react in these kinds of situations but there are times when we feel compelled to act and nothing will stop us. It doesn't mean our good judgment goes away.
-AJ
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

You should know the response time to the location for trained help, and confirm they've been called. The more remote the more you'd have to do yourself.

A tree crew could balance a couch down and bring it back up. Ventilate with the leaf blower, cut support beams, whatever it takes, even if that means waiting for help.
 
Re: \'Urgent Rescue\' Question?

Back truck hitch over hole. tie off climb line to hitch. Lower saddle with climb line run thru a pulley binerd to the bridge. run climb line thru 2nd pulley on hitch. Rig porta wrap on whatever is close. put E2E line at upper pulley to work as a backup capture device. Have her put saddle on. Pull like hell by hand. Tie off as needed. I just went thru this stuff last week in a SFI training course. Bottom line as per the instructor. "if you are more than 1/2 hr + from assistance and it's life threatening you have to do what you have to do. It's your call and you have to sleep with yourself everynight." A 3 hour wait by the OP specs is an eternity. You gotta get her out while you can if the gittns good. Mineshafts are not forgiving places with gases, snakes, water, lack of O2 etc...If she passes out fore any reason you are most certainly SOL. I also 100% agree with the don't become the 2nd victim technique. I would not go down the hole for her period. If she couldn't get herself into a saddle or rope harness of some type unassisted I would be waitn for the EMS. If she's good enough to get a rope around her or saddle on she probably don't need a backboard. IF she died because of bleeding out or a concussion that led to something else and I stood there waiting 3 hrs for EMS instead that is just plain unacceptable. Past experiences have shown me that EMS politely/ nonpolitely brush you aside when you offer assistance and that is partly well founded. THey have no idea of your skills nor are you part of their "team" that has trained together for such situations. They usually have no idea then of how to incorporate you into their plan since your skills are an unknown. I would suspect legally there are issues too.
 
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