Upset Members

bottom line.......if the homeowner owns the tree they have the final say.PERIOD! we can andshould try and persuade them to the appropriate approach but in the end if they want it they get it. better us cert arbs getting paid to do requested work to fuel our fight than someone who never gives a [bad word] and will never try to persuade. if they want it done and you dont do it someone else will. its a noble suggestion.....turning away the work and all.....but why help give rise to constant hacks by enriching their pocket books with the procedes of our refused work. that work may just buy me a new tree for my yard.
 
i just started running hours as an apprentice utility arborist. i have been a ca for 1 year, and worked under a ca for 4. bb, i think i speak for all of us here when i say that i truly wish i could have said no to either my boss or a customer that had told me to top a tree when all other alternatives were presented (and sometimes even performed) and said customer still refused and said 'top.' it must be nice to be able to say that you have never done anything against your moral imperative, i simply am jealous of your principle. though i gotta say, it sure is nice to spend hours properly pruning a tree only to be called back to the job site the next day and top the tree. would you have walked away?

oh wait i know the answer...

dylan
 
[ QUOTE ]
i just started running hours as an apprentice utility arborist. i have been a ca for 1 year, and worked under a ca for 4. bb, i think i speak for all of us here when i say that i truly wish i could have said no to either my boss or a customer that had told me to top a tree when all other alternatives were presented (and sometimes even performed) and said customer still refused and said 'top.' it must be nice to be able to say that you have never done anything against your moral imperative, i simply am jealous of your principle. though i gotta say, it sure is nice to spend hours properly pruning a tree only to be called back to the job site the next day and top the tree. would you have walked away?

oh wait i know the answer...

dylan

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak to the utility, use the liability word, explain why this practice is not recommended, then remove instead of top! If the tree needs to be topped it is wrong tree wrong location. Just remove it the first time and save the utility money and liability.

If the customer wants it topped, tell them you dont perform that duty but we will gladly prune your tree properly. if they say no top it! Skip that tree explain it to the utility, and have them explain they are there to prune the tree for the powerlines, not top the tree for the customer.

You have to remember I work in almost all city/suburban settings. Treecare is of high iportance, and the utilities are all small private utilities. I see topping and hack work on the Grid all the time. Especially out in the rural areas. heck i live on the outskirts of a major city in MA, they came through and topped the town trees in my neighborhood. The neighbors all raised hell before I had the chance, and the newspapers were involved. Noone likes bad press!
 
we don't work for the customer, they don't sign my paycheck, we do what we're told by our bosses, some of us work under piece and material, we don't have time to spend 4 hours on 1 stupid norway or elm, the tree is still doing more good for the air with half of it gone than a stump in the ground. Customers don't care about topping, all they care is that their tree is still there, and they know it will fill in with sucker growth and boom beatiful leafy tree for them.

and luckily for us it will decay to a point where the HO will see it's dangerous and they call us, out it comes problem solved.

The more trees standing the longer I keep in a job.
 
let me make sure I have this right.

-as long as my boss says to do it, it OK.

-a topped tree that will soon rot and become a hazard is better for the air, don't worry about the powerlines or the trees health

-money (piece work) is more important than following proper pruning standards

-our jobs are guaranteed not by the quality of the work we perform, rather how many trees are left standing.



me personally, I run my crew, and the crews I oversee a lil differently. to each their own I guess. shame the utilities don't have better trained staff to recognize and reward proper work practices in all parts of the country. what do the tree wardens say about topping their trees? or is this only performed on private trees which dunce homeowners own?
 
There's no tree nazis around here,

As long as my boss tells me to do it, I keep my job.

The same topped tree that I've topped 3 times in 12 years is still growing strong and not a hazard to anything, especially the lines I am paid to clear.

Yes money is more important to me than making everything "pretty" I have a job to do.

If a homeowner wanted to pay you $1000 to top their tree and you said no, would you complain because someone else said yes? Its their tree you do what they ask.

In utility work I have 3 concerns, in this order,

1. The safety of myself and the people around me.

2. The integrity of the lines in which I'm paid to keep clear.

3. How pretty the tree looks when I'm done.

Topping a tree doesn't kill it instantly, top it keep an eye on it, and remove when neccessary.
 
The utility arborist companies are an entirely different breed of arborist in my experience BB.

Their mindset centers on maximum billable hours, and milking each job for all it's worth. And here in my area(CA) Asplundh has it down to a fine art.

My own backyard at home is a prime example of the Asplundh mindset at it's very worst. The electric power delivery grid runs through our backyards, and one of the poles is in my neighbor's backyard, it feeds power, phone and cable to his home and mine. This neighbor has two young Wash fan palms growing in his rear corner yard that surround the utility pole and growing through the drop feeds right up into the main primary high voltage at the very top, bare wires and green fronds making contact and giving off a nice crackly buzz in the wind.

One fine Sunday about two years ago I pointed this growing problem out to my neighbor and offered to put both palms safely on the ground in his backyard for him for 100 bucks, no haul, a dirt cheap nice neighbor discount. He thanks me but says he's already called the power company to deal with it. Sure enough, a week later an Asplundh crew comes out and sends an obvious rookie climber up the palms with nothing but a handsaw, polesaw, saddle and gaffs who weaves his way up one of the palms cutting just enough fronds to get up there and clear the green fronds away from the primaries and power drops, come down and call it done. Trip number one is done in about three hours.

About 9 months later the same routine, and 9 months after that the same routine again. Now after three of these half azzed attempts at clearance my neighbor complains rather vigorously asking why not just cut the palms under the wires down and solve the problem once and for all? So about 4 months ago Asplundh comes out for the fourth time, but this time cuts all the green fronds off both palms leaving just the center spikes cut down to about a foot above the heart crown of each palm.

This is the result of 4 trips and over 12 billable hours from the good folks at Asplundh for a 3 man crew truck and chipper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Qz6iAuJDyA

Whose interests are being served with this BS work ethic other than Asplundh?

It sure isn't my neighbor's or SDG&E's!

jomoco
 
I know what you mean! Its unfortunate, but I am beginning to see where the bad rep comes from!

FWIW

I have been running a utility crew this year for the past 5 months, and managing another crew, and now a third crew. I have a good grasp on the utility industry, from both sides, Linesman and Certified Arborist/Line Clearance Arborist. We are lucky I around here to have "TREE NAZIS"! Who give a damn, and an EDUCATED general public who realize topping is horrible. They also realize that even though we try our best to clear the lines and keep trees healthy we aren't doing whats ultimately best for the trees. We are told all the time that at least we make a visible effort and thank you for thinking of our trees and community! That always makes me and the boys feel great!!

Be Safe!
 
heres the thing bb, i realize that in every action we always have a choice...if a man holds a gun to your head in an attempt to glean some information you can always tell him no...and be shot. i chose to top the tree that i had already spent hours pruning properly because educating the customer failed me and there were guys lined up to get the job i have, and still have. i have a young family and a mortgage...trees come after that. do you realize how much timber you are inadvertently responsible for destroying? how much forest in north america has been razed to sate the thirst of our consumer society? topping an improperly placed tree after perfoming the proper pruning technique, and losing money on the job, was my only recourse...or i might have just as well pulled the trigger myself. oh and by the way, this wasn`t a utility tree...it was a resi job. i wont lose any sleep. is your house framed out of ideals or timber that was clear cut from pristine wilderness
smirk.gif
 
What does that have to do with utility arborist companies like Asplundh milking jobs unnecessarily and screwing over the utility provider and the home/property owner?

It aint ethical or efficient, nor is it good business practice.

I'm not saying all utility arborist companies do it, just most of them here locally. And they are a national company.

jomoco
 
the claim was made that anyone who tops or disfigures a tree does so unethically and without regard to the owner of the tree and with more regard to the paycheck. i would contend that this is a simplification of the details of the day to day challenges that the utility trimmer faces, and a stereotype of said trimmer that seems to be perpetrated by those who would choose walk away from that type work. the problem i have with this is that without a client who is receptive to the idea of proper arboricultural practice, in my experience (which is admittedly limited) it is very difficult to uphold those proper practices. i use the residential example to illustrate the point that even in a realm where the arborist should have the authority to properly prune as is his or her imperative, it often becomes a choice between a meal ticket and principle. this thread seems to have been derailed into a contest between those who firmly disagree in topping a tree and will not do it, and those who firmly disagree in topping a tree, but will do it when the circumstances leave very little opportunity for the alternative. imo, the latter category is the more practical. the safety of the power grid is the utility tree workers job. if bureaucracy dictates that a tree cannot be removed without approval of the owner of that tree, and the owner will not remove the tree, then it must be made safe for the utility. i believe that hammering the point of not topping a tree without realizing the particular situations in which it needs to be done for safety`s sake is far more ignorant than those `brutes` who perform the work. in the end, it all boils down to the right tree in the right place, untill the homeowner or even the utility acknowledges this, there will always be conflict. oh and work safe all, this has been a very informative debate.

dylan
 
man you're all over the place! saying topping is NOT only done to make the job more progitable, then giving an example that backs my theory up!

in rare cases when there is a hazard tree that should be removed, the HO will NOT give permission, yes you have to make the system safe.

The Arborist, utility or residential/commercial, should be more than eductaed to educate the customer. a proper salesman can sell themselvews and their practices to anyone. that's what we ultimately do in this profession, sell the general public our ideas and ourselves/company you are using extreme rare cases as the precedent and that's not the case.

what do politics have to do with this thread?!

I have a wife, mortgage, twin 7 month old babies, car payments, 2 dogs, and a treegeek habit..what's your point?

and yes my home was built with farm grown, organic, sustainable timber, and was delivered bh a truck that runs biodiesel........j/k


my fence though is made from larch and hemlocks that were dieing on a customers property. we removed them, I had the timber rough sawn, and I installed the fence. how's that mr. forest killer?
 
i didnt sell the job, it was another arborist, so i suppose thats where you see a disconnect. i never sell topping, and often dissuade customers from having it done when other arborists who do estimates have failed to educate the customer properly. like i said, you fall into the category of those who disagree with topping and will never do it, admirable, but im in the camp that will top when all other recourse has been exhausted. does this make me unethical, or practical...i suppose i am all over the map, but the arguments you have made are frustrating to me (clearly the original poster as well), and i think this is because you apply more rhetoric than logic to your argument. broken down your argument is this:

Topping is unethical
If you cant educate against topping you are unethical.
If you top you are unethical.
Therefore, if you top a tree even after you exhaust all recourse in order to avoid topping the tree, you are still unethical.

that is super frustrating, because the discussion doesnt really go any farther when you refuse to admit that those who top arent necessarily unethical, but influenced by many different variables into doing something against their will.

im sure the quality of your work is high, but so is mine. just because i have topped a tree, doesnt make me an unethical arborist, especially when you consider the details, which is what you refuse to do, hence the frustration.

i am in no way condoning the actions of those who wantonly disfigure trees, only suggesting that we hold off our judgments about the work of others, because it could be the case that we tried our best to do what was right.

finally, the politics were to illustrate that you may be unconsciously guilty of far worse things than topping a tree, but yet you are very quick to make assumptions about people you dont even know based upon the end result of a situation about which you have little to no information. i will always be a student of the trees, never the master. the most important thing i believe i have learned is humility.

play safe.
 
you're too funny! I like you.

I did in fact say that topping is acceptable if all options are exhausted to clear the lines post # 188421. BUT the amount of topping we see in the utility industry is disgusting. I am not calling anyone unethical. I just know that with a little more patience, and educating the customer 99% of topping can be avoided. If you pull up to a 45' tree near the lines, and you are there to prune it, yet the customer demands topping it, that is generally more work. Its far easier and faster to prune most trees in the lines than to top them out and chip all that debris and wood. never mind the increased dump runs.


Remember Dylan this is the utility forum. So bringing resi talk into this game doesn't work, nor does politics, thats for the OT forum.

PM me if you want and we can discuss this further, its just a banter back and forth now and no one wants to read it besides us!
 
Have had to sign a lot of trees up for topping, but lately I find some customers are coming around, or just tired of me asking to remove the tree and giving them a speech on trees. It takes time to convince them, even years.
 
Touche Truckman!

Indeed there are european records of properly pollarded plane trees outliving their un-pollarded wild brethren planes in the wild.

Imagine how cool it would be to actually see an Asplundh clearance crew patiently and carefully cutting each sprout back to the callous "foot" just like in gay paris!

I'd fall out of the tree for sure seeing such an unlikely comedy!

I actually like the idea though, alot!

jomoco
 
I've topped several trees in my career and they were nowhere near power, does that mean that I am a terrible person for not walking away from the job?

I come from a place where the majority of people believe that the only reason you trim a tree is for power service, so when you go to their property to trim a tree that isn't near any lines they want it to look like it is.

And you can talk about bad pruning practices 'til your blue in the face, or walk away, doesn't matter that tree is getting topped anyway just depends if you want to be able to pay for groceries that week or not.

Most of my customers are smarter than that, but you still have the uncle cletus situation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom