Unicender
- Thread starter matdand
- Start date
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
A floating false crotch system similar to what Jamin showed isn't SRT in any shape or form.
In SRT the climber is attached directly to one rope and works from the same rope.
Keeping the nomenclature clear is important for lots of reasons.
In SRT the climber is attached directly to one rope and works from the same rope.
Keeping the nomenclature clear is important for lots of reasons.
- Location
- NJ
uummm ok
Not sure I understand your logic of what your saying, but if the upper crust say so I guess I'm game.
Not sure I understand your logic of what your saying, but if the upper crust say so I guess I'm game.
[ QUOTE ]
A floating false crotch system similar to what Jamin showed isn't SRT in any shape or form.
In SRT the climber is attached directly to one rope and works from the same rope.
Keeping the nomenclature clear is important for lots of reasons.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree Jamin's system is very complex. I dont like working off of the handled ascender even with a backup. Theres not an ascender on the market rated anywhere near close to the min. standard. I do use Ddrt on SRT but I rig it up so the ascender is not part of the equation.
I disagree with Tom' staement that Jamin's pictured setup is not SRT. With that set up you would ascend SRT and work Ddrt without any changeover.
Your system worries me Jamin. I too once thought it was OK to work off an ascender as pictured but have changed my thought process.
A floating false crotch system similar to what Jamin showed isn't SRT in any shape or form.
In SRT the climber is attached directly to one rope and works from the same rope.
Keeping the nomenclature clear is important for lots of reasons.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree Jamin's system is very complex. I dont like working off of the handled ascender even with a backup. Theres not an ascender on the market rated anywhere near close to the min. standard. I do use Ddrt on SRT but I rig it up so the ascender is not part of the equation.
I disagree with Tom' staement that Jamin's pictured setup is not SRT. With that set up you would ascend SRT and work Ddrt without any changeover.
Your system worries me Jamin. I too once thought it was OK to work off an ascender as pictured but have changed my thought process.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
FWIW...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Rope_Technique
or more...
http://tinyurl.com/dfhn2r
Jamin's would more correctly be a floating false crotch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Rope_Technique
or more...
http://tinyurl.com/dfhn2r
Jamin's would more correctly be a floating false crotch.
- Location
- NJ
not to be argumentive but,
[ QUOTE ]
Single Rope Technique (SRT) is a set of methods used to descend and ascend on the same single rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats what he's doing no??
He's ascending up a Single rope, then descending off the same single rope with an other rope. I'm lost in your reason to say he's not? What difference does it make if he descends with a device on the rope or a device seperate from the same single rope? he is still working off a single rope. I belive this is one your just wanting to call the kettle black no matter what. I notice it says, "methods to descend and ascend on the same single rope."
[ QUOTE ]
Single Rope Technique (SRT) is a set of methods used to descend and ascend on the same single rope.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thats what he's doing no??
He's ascending up a Single rope, then descending off the same single rope with an other rope. I'm lost in your reason to say he's not? What difference does it make if he descends with a device on the rope or a device seperate from the same single rope? he is still working off a single rope. I belive this is one your just wanting to call the kettle black no matter what. I notice it says, "methods to descend and ascend on the same single rope."
[ QUOTE ]
Your system worries me Jamin.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jamin, I agree with Top on this. I actually can't believe any comp judge would allow this sytem or think it acceptable.
Cammed ascenders cannot take even moderate falls without damaging the rope or fail themselves. They are simply not designed for that. So to set up a working system from them is just not appropriate.
Think about running your pulley off of a prusik, which can handle some abuse when set properly. Better yet, get a Uni. I know a lot of you like to have the ability to work as you go up, thus the desire to set up these kinds of systems. However, my first priority on a tree entry tall enough to require SRT is to immediately ascend all the way to my TIP to make sure that things are as I thought. Just look at all the accident reports dealing with TIP failures. They can fool you.
Once satisfied, I THEN begin to work.
Dave
Your system worries me Jamin.
[/ QUOTE ]
Jamin, I agree with Top on this. I actually can't believe any comp judge would allow this sytem or think it acceptable.
Cammed ascenders cannot take even moderate falls without damaging the rope or fail themselves. They are simply not designed for that. So to set up a working system from them is just not appropriate.
Think about running your pulley off of a prusik, which can handle some abuse when set properly. Better yet, get a Uni. I know a lot of you like to have the ability to work as you go up, thus the desire to set up these kinds of systems. However, my first priority on a tree entry tall enough to require SRT is to immediately ascend all the way to my TIP to make sure that things are as I thought. Just look at all the accident reports dealing with TIP failures. They can fool you.
Once satisfied, I THEN begin to work.
Dave
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
Holly,
"The same single rope"...not two ropes...did you read the links and see what the rest of the rope access world calls SRT?
Does the naming make a big difference? Probably not...but, as Alex Shigo said, 'Define your terms'
"The same single rope"...not two ropes...did you read the links and see what the rest of the rope access world calls SRT?
Does the naming make a big difference? Probably not...but, as Alex Shigo said, 'Define your terms'
- Location
- Canada
Perhaps what Jamin is using should be referred to as a HYBRID climbing system.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
[ QUOTE ]
In what situation would you use a system like the one Jamin set up on his SRT rope. Why would you use this instead of just climbing to the top using SRT then tying in DRT and work? Just wondering.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a lot of effort.
Because there are those days when you need a TIP, but yet can't fully isolate a crotch (in a nasty tree). As you are ascending up the tree you can walk out on any limb and tip tie something to be lifted out by a GRCS (or something in that nature). In other words, you can work while you make your way to the top. Then, change over.
FTR. I never said I use this 100% of the time. This technique is used for the reasons above. It is merely a technique for certain situations. That's it.
You can descend immediately (and that is immediately) if your are being pursued by insects.
The groundsman can rescue you if you got hurt.
The ascent is 1:1 ratio. Less energy to vertically climb.--And this is where SRT is awesome. However, once you descend on your integrated DRT you must ascend back up. And that sucks.
But, I don't think there is anything out there that is the "golden nugget" for SRT applications while working. After all, if one accidentally hits the rope with a saw.... bye bye!
If there were some thing that could respond like a VT friction hitch for tending slack and descending fast and controlled, then the switch over makes sense.
In what situation would you use a system like the one Jamin set up on his SRT rope. Why would you use this instead of just climbing to the top using SRT then tying in DRT and work? Just wondering.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is a lot of effort.
Because there are those days when you need a TIP, but yet can't fully isolate a crotch (in a nasty tree). As you are ascending up the tree you can walk out on any limb and tip tie something to be lifted out by a GRCS (or something in that nature). In other words, you can work while you make your way to the top. Then, change over.
But, I don't think there is anything out there that is the "golden nugget" for SRT applications while working. After all, if one accidentally hits the rope with a saw.... bye bye!
If there were some thing that could respond like a VT friction hitch for tending slack and descending fast and controlled, then the switch over makes sense.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
Jamin, I am confident that everyone with an interest in climbing more efficiently will be climbing SRT pretty soon.
There are so many advantages. people are not doing it now because they dont know how yet and they think they need lots of money and shiny toys. not true. SRT is accesable to us purist rope guys with a disdain for expensive mechanicals.
SRT is great.
Bowlegs, the F8 revolver method you can go back and forth from SRT to dDRT at leisure and my whole SRT system was built with a dmm revolver and a figure 8 (73 dollars). but I already had both of those peices so it cost me nothing extra.
I know SRT is better because the other day I dropped my eight and could not find it for a while. I did the rest of the tree dDRT and was miserable and felt like I was fighting friction and everything was soooooooo slow.
There are so many advantages. people are not doing it now because they dont know how yet and they think they need lots of money and shiny toys. not true. SRT is accesable to us purist rope guys with a disdain for expensive mechanicals.
SRT is great.
Bowlegs, the F8 revolver method you can go back and forth from SRT to dDRT at leisure and my whole SRT system was built with a dmm revolver and a figure 8 (73 dollars). but I already had both of those peices so it cost me nothing extra.
I know SRT is better because the other day I dropped my eight and could not find it for a while. I did the rest of the tree dDRT and was miserable and felt like I was fighting friction and everything was soooooooo slow.
- Location
- Longmont, CO
However, with these conversations, I'm sure a Uni purchase is right around the corner for me. After all, it would be a technique and tool to have when needed. And if I find it useful a majority of the time, then I'll use it a majority of the time.
The thing that worries me is, the possibility of someone who is working off this SRT, is not tied in twice, and accidentally cuts his rope. And heaven forbid, someone on the ground cuts his rope
[ QUOTE ]
Cammed ascenders cannot take even moderate falls without damaging the rope or fail themselves. They are simply not designed for that. So to set up a working system from them is just not appropriate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the Uni unique in this regard? How about a smooth cam?
Cammed ascenders cannot take even moderate falls without damaging the rope or fail themselves. They are simply not designed for that. So to set up a working system from them is just not appropriate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the Uni unique in this regard? How about a smooth cam?
- Location
- Haddonfield, nj
Jamin, I use a similar set up as you posted a lot, but I use a vt knot that backs up the hand ascender. It is gear intensive, but I already own most of the gear so it's not a big deal. Also, being the only climber in the company, I find it a bit soothing to know that my guys can lower me down out of the tree incase of an emergency situation.
My uni will be here Monday, I'm pretty pumped, I'm going to try to switch over to srt for a little to see if it benefits me. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
For the record, I do use srt sometimes. I use a rads system for short ascents (25ft or less) and sometimes I'll use a frog system for longer ascents when footlocking is out of the question (I hate footlocking near the stem) I'm love the frog system but hate how long it takes to switch over to descent mode. I'm hoping the uni is the answer to my problems.
My uni will be here Monday, I'm pretty pumped, I'm going to try to switch over to srt for a little to see if it benefits me. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
For the record, I do use srt sometimes. I use a rads system for short ascents (25ft or less) and sometimes I'll use a frog system for longer ascents when footlocking is out of the question (I hate footlocking near the stem) I'm love the frog system but hate how long it takes to switch over to descent mode. I'm hoping the uni is the answer to my problems.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
If there were some thing that could respond like a VT friction hitch for tending slack and descending fast and controlled, then the switch over makes sense.
[/ QUOTE ]
F8 revolver! it really does work, curious if anyone has tried it and can say it doesn't work.
[/ QUOTE ]
F8 revolver! it really does work, curious if anyone has tried it and can say it doesn't work.
- Location
- Haddonfield, nj
Treebeing, I have two locking revolver carabiners coming my way on Monday as well. I'll give your system a shot. I was meaning to when you first posted it, I even ordered the figure 8 with the large roller built in that hollen had posted a link to but they never sent me the equipment and the idea fell to the wayside.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
thats great FT. you are an amazing gear head. thats good for everyone.
moss
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Carlisle, Massachusetts, U.S.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cammed ascenders cannot take even moderate falls without damaging the rope or fail themselves. They are simply not designed for that. So to set up a working system from them is just not appropriate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the Uni unique in this regard? How about a smooth cam?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters, toothed cam shreds the cover but a smooth cammed ascender can totally sever the rope. I think the problem is that there is small focal point where the rope is pinched by the ascender. That's not going to be good in a shock load scenario. The Unicender is more like a rack, it distributes load through the device. At least it appears that way looking at it.
Which makes me wonder if a rack might be a good cheapo/safe alternative to an ascender or the Unicender for an SRT floating false crotch for DRT. Cool thing about using a tied-off rack/false crotch is that you would have descent mode all ready to go when you want to get out of the tree. Theoretical of course, I've never tried implementing a rack that way.
-moss
[ QUOTE ]
Cammed ascenders cannot take even moderate falls without damaging the rope or fail themselves. They are simply not designed for that. So to set up a working system from them is just not appropriate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Is the Uni unique in this regard? How about a smooth cam?
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters, toothed cam shreds the cover but a smooth cammed ascender can totally sever the rope. I think the problem is that there is small focal point where the rope is pinched by the ascender. That's not going to be good in a shock load scenario. The Unicender is more like a rack, it distributes load through the device. At least it appears that way looking at it.
Which makes me wonder if a rack might be a good cheapo/safe alternative to an ascender or the Unicender for an SRT floating false crotch for DRT. Cool thing about using a tied-off rack/false crotch is that you would have descent mode all ready to go when you want to get out of the tree. Theoretical of course, I've never tried implementing a rack that way.
-moss
TreeCo
Carpal tunnel level member
[ QUOTE ]
Which makes me wonder if a rack might be a good cheapo/safe alternative to an ascender or the Unicender for an SRT floating false crotch for DRT. Cool thing about using a tied-off rack/false crotch is that you would have descent mode all ready to go when you want to get out of the tree. Theoretical of course, I've never tried implementing a rack that way.
-moss
[/ QUOTE ]
Racks wouldn't be good! Loading and unloading and the way they are put on and off of the rope would be a major concern. I know I wouldn't want to go for a limb walk with a rack banging around in the tree. A locked off figure eight would be safer but falls short of a butterfly knot, IMO.
Which makes me wonder if a rack might be a good cheapo/safe alternative to an ascender or the Unicender for an SRT floating false crotch for DRT. Cool thing about using a tied-off rack/false crotch is that you would have descent mode all ready to go when you want to get out of the tree. Theoretical of course, I've never tried implementing a rack that way.
-moss
[/ QUOTE ]
Racks wouldn't be good! Loading and unloading and the way they are put on and off of the rope would be a major concern. I know I wouldn't want to go for a limb walk with a rack banging around in the tree. A locked off figure eight would be safer but falls short of a butterfly knot, IMO.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it matters, toothed cam shreds the cover but a smooth cammed ascender can totally sever the rope. I think the problem is that there is small focal point where the rope is pinched by the ascender. That's not going to be good in a shock load scenario. The Unicender is more like a rack, it distributes load through the device. At least it appears that way looking at it.-moss
[/ QUOTE ]
If I am successful with this link, you should see Morgan drop testing the Uni. These were pretty confidence-inspiring especially considering our equipment is only rated for work positioning, not fall ratings.
Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JLlTH2W1BI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nt0poDinJk
I don't think it matters, toothed cam shreds the cover but a smooth cammed ascender can totally sever the rope. I think the problem is that there is small focal point where the rope is pinched by the ascender. That's not going to be good in a shock load scenario. The Unicender is more like a rack, it distributes load through the device. At least it appears that way looking at it.-moss
[/ QUOTE ]
If I am successful with this link, you should see Morgan drop testing the Uni. These were pretty confidence-inspiring especially considering our equipment is only rated for work positioning, not fall ratings.
Dave
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JLlTH2W1BI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nt0poDinJk
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