UniCender vs. Petzl Rig

X

xman

Location
Costa Rica
Hey Mr. Dunlap,

I know you of all people have used both of these devices way before they became available to the not so worthy such as myself. However, we have discussed many techniques/ systems in the past and I want to pick your brain a little bit on this uni-chingadera. We are religious single line nut-balls! Recently, we hooked up with the Rig from Petzl and have found it to our liking. Is this Uni-chingadera that much smoother for single line climbing and will it fly with the judges at a TCC or ITCC? We just had the AZ comp. and the judges allowed my co-worker who made it to the masters but was from Cali. to do a Masters Climb/ Exhibition with the single line technique with the rig! It was smooth, he almost beat the AZ competitor, even though he is from Cali. Juan Barba and Bob Bennet were so stoked for the demo. Now, if this Uni-Chingadera is better than the Rig, I will order one tomorrow.

Thanks in Advance and Stay Tied in,

The O.G. X-man
 
Mr....??? That's my Dad :)

The Rig would work in a RADS of course but that isn't as smooth as a Uni for going up and down.

Ron Reese has done a nice writeup about the Rig...here and at The Tree Climbers Coalition.

I'm pleased to hear that the Uni was allowed in a TCC comp. There's no reason not to.
 
xman,

Good topic! For SRT, the Petzl Rig and the Unicender are distinctly different configurations. As Tom said, the Rig is probably best used in a RADS configuration which gives a 1:1 for the legs but a 3:1 on the down rope the arm(s) tend. A RADS is a sit-stand setup - I haven't seen a way to morph the RADS into a rope walker.

The Unicender is a constant 1:1 and is compatible with both sit-stand and rope walker methods, although the rope walker setup requires additional gear.

Both allow the climber to both ascend and descend. I guess one thing I like about the RADS is that I can ascend with just my arms, and often do, after I've entered the tree - that frees me of foot loops.

One enhancement I've made to my RADS setup is using a SMC/PMI Grip for the upper ascender. The Grip doesn't have the sharp teeth and is retrievable with a tether and can be 'tended' with the same tether for descending without removing it or even locking out the cam. I use a Cinch instead of a Grigri or Rig in my RADS setup, but if I'm working, which is not on a pro basis, I use my I'D which is a big Rig. So if I were setting up a work RADS, I'd use the Rig and the PMI Grip.

I haven't used a Unicender, so I can't add much about it, but from what I've read, it does have some interesting advantages.
 
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climbing RADS seems like a pain in the butt and slow.

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Compared to what? E.g. it'll climb faster than DdRT. It's not quite as fast as a sit-stand frog or Texas, but much more versatile; it's not as fast a a rope walker but it takes much less gear and has a built in escape and up and down mode.
 
There is a clever chart in ON ROPE that compares many rope ascent systems. Each component is given a score. If there were a way to replicate that chart it would put this discussion in order.

There are places for all of these systems. I just learned a way to build a RADS/YoYo from Joe Maher using a hitch/biner up top, a hitch with a prusik minding pulley at your waist. If there was no gear and you wanted to make a RADS this would work. It's performance would be many levels lower than one made with proper gear, but it would go up and down.
 
not to hi-jack the thread but, I read on the Sherrill website that the Uniscender has parts that wear out from friction...there was nothing about replacement parts. Do you have to replace the entire tool or are there replacement parts? sorry, if this is hi-jacking.
 
I just read that last night, and was wandering the same thing.
Has anyone wore one out yet? No highclimber, I think that was a good ?, and was going to ask the same thing.
 
The current model is rebuildable. The clutch pieces wear because of rope friction. Dirty rope, heavier climbers and faster descents makes them wear faster.

the cost of a rebuild is unknown so far.
 
Any idea on when we might know what this cost will be? I would really like to try this thing out but not if I have to drop 3 and a half bens and then another one or two in six months or so.
 
The original uni costs 80 bucks to rebuild. It says so on Morgans website.

The rock exotica one? I have no idea.

I've had my uni for a year now, I only use it for srt and I've yet to get a rebuild or see any slippage.

I use it everyday but mainly for straight up and down ascent and descent on excurrent trees, simple dead wooding or limb removal. I prefer a hitch when limb walking so I'll switch to either drt or a variation of the f8 revolver set up, needless to say, it doesn't get beat up nearly as much as it could.
 
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The Unicender is a constant 1:1 and is compatible with both sit-stand and rope walker methods, although the rope walker setup requires additional gear.

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Ron, I will often use the rope walker with the Unicender in the middle position so the only additional piece of gear might be a shoulder strap, but even that can be replaced by a lanyard. Not having to disengage or even use the Croll makes downward transitions smooth and fast.

With the Uni, rope walker systems are not slow to setup nor necessarily gear intensive.

The Unicender can accomplish all the climbing tasks I have asked of it, even Rads, but I still plan on getting the Rig. Why? Subtleties in the job at hand.

Most refer to speed on rope, but I think speed of job. Every tree is unique and will have "a best for it" tool and work plan. This can be best illustrated in the knots we use. Many perform the same function but with slight differences that justify their existence.

Dave
 
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...Ron, I will often use the rope walker with the Unicender in the middle position so the only additional piece of gear might be a shoulder strap, but even that can be replaced by a lanyard. Not having to disengage or even use the Croll makes downward transitions smooth and fast.

With the Uni, rope walker systems are not slow to setup nor necessarily gear intensive.

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Don't you have an ascender for each foot in a rope walker? That's at least one extra piece of gear, and then as you said a chest or shoulder harness? That's another piece of gear.

I just didn't want to imply that if one had a Uni and an upper ascender, he could rope walk. At least another foot ascender is required.

Plus if you are on a rope walker and have to do an immediate bail out, you do have to clear at least one foot ascender and at least release the upper ascender.

In contrast, with my RADS setup I can pull the lever at any time and descend - no messin' with a cam, no foot ascender, nothing, just pull the lever.

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The Unicender can accomplish all the climbing tasks I have asked of it, even Rads, but I still plan on getting the Rig. Why? Subtleties in the job at hand.

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Exactly! And I find those subtleties difficult to express sometimes, but they are there when you're on rope.

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Most refer to speed on rope, but I think speed of job. Every tree is unique and will have "a best for it" tool and work plan. This can be best illustrated in the knots we use. Many perform the same function but with slight differences that justify their existence.

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Absolutely!

I almost bought a Rig again yesterday and I'm far from over it, and you ain't helpin'
tongue.gif
.
 
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Don't you have an ascender for each foot in a rope walker? That's at least one extra piece of gear, and then as you said a chest or shoulder harness? That's another piece of gear.

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I learned to climb in a Bry-Dan saddle which had interaugenal shoulder straps. I got use to this so now, even with Petzl's Sequoia SRT, I always climb with shoulder straps (Torse). I find they stabilize the saddle to my liking.

I don't use two foot ascenders; Pantin on the right foot, a removeable foot strap for the left foot to the upper ascender.

Emergency bail out requires only kick out of the Pantin to descend. You can just leave the upper ascender there if it is a true emergency, or take the few seconds extra to disengage it and clip it onto your saddle if it is not an emergency.


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In contrast, with my RADS setup I can pull the lever at any time and descend - no messin' with a cam, no foot ascender, nothing, just pull the lever.

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I keep forgetting you like the hands only Rads system. Most people will use a foot strap from the left ascender at the very least.


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I almost bought a Rig again yesterday and I'm far from over it, and you ain't helpin'
tongue.gif
.

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Hey, I'm there for ya, bro!
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Dave
 
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...
I learned to climb in a Bry-Dan saddle which had interaugenal shoulder straps. I got use to this so now, even with Petzl's Sequoia SRT, I always climb with shoulder straps (Torse). I find they stabilize the saddle to my liking.

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As they say - yeah but - most climbers don't have a shoulder/chest harness setup so they'd have to add one to implement a rope walker with a Uni.

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...I don't use two foot ascenders; Pantin on the right foot, a removeable foot strap for the left foot to the upper ascender...

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That is two foot ascenders, one may be the upper ascender, but a Pantin is the second. So what I was saying was a person would need to add to the Uni, a shoulder/chest rig, and a Pantin - that's the 'some more gear' I referred to.

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...Emergency bail out requires only kick out of the Pantin to descend. You can just leave the upper ascender there if it is a true emergency, or take the few seconds extra to disengage it and clip it onto your saddle if it is not an emergency...

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Yep, that's true.

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In contrast, with my RADS setup I can pull the lever at any time and descend - no messin' with a cam, no foot ascender, nothing, just pull the lever.

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...I keep forgetting you like the hands only Rads system. Most people will use a foot strap from the left ascender at the very least.

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Well, only after I'm 'in' the tree. But I need to edit a short video that shows my feet in footloops connected to the upper ascender and a bail out with doing no more than pulling the lever. No kicking off footloops, I just leave them in place and leave my feet in them. When I pull the lever I come down.

But, I think we're just discussing stuff here and that's good. As far as I can see we're in complete agreement on everything. I'll try to get the video online today.

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I almost bought a Rig again yesterday and I'm far from over it, and you ain't helpin'
tongue.gif
.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, I'm there for ya, bro!
grin.gif


Dave

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Yeah, yeah. It's funny: I was going out to video my RADS thing and I thought, "What device should I use, the Cinch, a Grigri, I'd already returned the Eddy to Mike, but ahhhh, why not use the Rig!! I'll make a run to On Rope and get one." It was 1:30pm and I realized they closed at 12:00 on Saturday.

This is your influence on me Dave.
grin.gif
 
A shoulder strap can be as simple as shoe lace or a piece of elastic cord. If a person wanted to get by without purchasing more gear just use your belt...kidding :)

RADS or Uni in rope walker mode are equal in my book when all of the various pieces are considered. Without a scaling/scoring mechanism to account for the variations there's not a good way to score them.

I do enjoy burrowing into the minutiae of all of the SRT systems!
 
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climbing RADS seems like a pain in the butt and slow.

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Compared to what?

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The Uniscender.
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But, I think you know that...

In 8 years in this industry and I have well over $1,000 dollars in aid climbing gear. (Yes, I'm a gear junkie). It would be more benificial, for me, to take all of the aluminium gear to the local recycling center. I'm just wasting storage space on my truck... Seriously folks.

I am learning all sorts of time saving and energy saving techniques with the Uniscender. It seems like every week I have a new idea that comes to mind when I'm in different situations. I even have ideas to improve the Uni (as I'm sure many other do/will).
 
Jamin,

I'm not trying to short change the Unicender. But there are other quite good systems. It's good to see someone progressing with their climbing system as you are. But I can say the very same thing for a RADS - "...I am learning all sorts of time saving and energy saving techniques..." that you say for the Unicender.

When I asked compared to what, I know that a RADS won't climb as fast or effectively as a ropewalker, especially a Mitchell or bungie. I've watched guys and gals on a bungie walker climb, and climb is an understatement, climb with their arms dangling at their sides, and they make 100 to 3000' foot climbs. So if climbing efficiency is the only goal, we'd have to concede that a bungie walker is tops.

But it's not all about climbing efficiency, it's about what Dave stated - job efficiency. He sees the Rig is a good choice based on the job at hand.

I really, really don't want to get into Unicender deficiencies, which I could, but I don't want to because I believe it is a good device, but it's not the only or even necessarily the best device for every climber or every job.

Just one example and I dare not say more because I know the Unicender will be passionately defended as if it were the only tool an arborist woudl ever need. But like you say you are finding new things to do with the Unicender, I've found one thing very advantageous with the RADS is the ability to climb without foot loops. One wouldn't want to do that for long climbs, but for work positioning, 10 feet or so ascents, limb walking, and I don't do much limb walking, having the feet completely free of foot loops is a big advantage. Hence the feet are relieved of providing propulsion per se and are free to help position and stablize oneself and even assist the arms if needed by using the feet on limbs.

It'd be best if I didn't mention rope sensitivity.
 
Ron,

I've climbed RADS with various devices and configurations. The only time I use a footloop is for long ascents, over 50' or so. Otherwise I cross foot on the Pantin and FL. At about 50' I add the left strap and ropewalk.

Going out is the same with either RADS or Uni. REturning with RADS can be quite smooth since the upper redi can be used as mechanical advantage to 'pull' yourself back in. The same setup can be done with the Uni by adding a redi in, either on the rope or the tree. The added line is added to the top of the Uni for the return flight. The end of the rope could be used or an small cord. This adds another piece but when climbing the Uni redi cord isn't any more of an issue than the RADS redi tail.
 
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