Tying in

[ QUOTE ]
Our company is known for it's "Safe Work Practices" and how not to take attractive short cuts. Our "Safety Record" speaks for itself.


[/ QUOTE ]
And just what company is this?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
norm do you ever operate the crane @ your co. or do you just give speeches to others about it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see the connection? Tying in vs. operating. My job is to teach field employees safe, efficient work practices. To evaluate a practice before it is executed. What can go wrong if this or that happens. Our method of tying in is "Bombproof". Is yours?
Our company is known for it's "Safe Work Practices" and how not to take attractive short cuts. Our "Safety Record" speaks for itself.
Tell ya what, write an article about crane tie in's and submit it to ISA, TCIA, Crane Works, you name it and see how far it gets.
Nuff said............I'm done.

[/ QUOTE ]

after rereading the question, I should have phrased it differently.

what I am getting at is you travel the country, maybe further?, giving seminars on crane operations in arboriculture (among other titles). are you an operator, or a well knowledged climber? I do know that things are much different from an operators perspective and its great to gather info from them and learn from them.

yes "our" system is as bombproof as the one in your pic. just like "yours" it would take a catastrophic/monumental failure/accident/occurance to compromise it.

yes we have a damn good safety record as well. and just like you we don't take shortcuts in anything we do. not sure why that comment was made, maybe you are insinuating something?

what do you do if a crane co. shows up with a different ball? you work for a national co., and must run into it. does each crane crew/shop/area/co. have that particular ball/hook at their disposal to be switched out with whatever the crane co. brings? this is assuming that you don't have your own crane(s)

I truly wish that with everything I have going on right now I could break free to write or co author an article that would be worthy of print. I don't have time, and feel bad about that. I am jealous of the writing skills of people like Mahk, and am thankful to guys like yourself, don blair, mahk, tim walsh, etc etc who find the time and energy to write truly educational pieces to be published.

I will tell you that I have been in touch with every ansi, osha, tcia, isa, maa, etc etc committee member I know. I have talked to each of them at length about the thoughts and ideas that I have. I am confident that my ideas will one day be passed around the table nationally. right now I am pestering people on my local level.
 
In the big picture I have to go with Norm and Mahk on this one. Like you, I like to have an open mind on these discusions.(Always looking for a better solution). Just to give you a little back round since you seem to need to know about backround. I have been a crane,(boom truck) operator or climber since 91'. I have also trained crane rental companies concering this issue of tieing into the crane. They agreed on Norms technique ( now an ANSI standard).They were very concerned about standards and we agreed on the solution. The standard looks at the big picture not at high performing individual organizations. Besides using our own boom truck, we also rent cranes about once a week. We have never had a problem with staying off the hook. All of the cranes we have rented have had a round or diamond ball. We have never had a problem using the clevis. There might be some wierd crane that will not work so you have a point. I just can't understand why you think your technique is better for our industry? After all Norm has been a leader is our industry longer than you have been alive.We should always listen to the mentors of our industry, just never be afraid to question them.
 
tod

thanks for the insight! I have respected you since the time we met at dinner and I learned who you are and what your about.

I don't think it is any better than anything else out there, already approved. I just prefer it.
 
I don't think that it is the BEST. is it just as good as the current approved systems? yes. do I prefer it? yes. should it be looked at closer and brought to the attention of voting members of different boards and committees? yes. is it safe? yes.
can it be used on any ball with a locking gate? yes do a bunch of yes' make it the best? no.

my point is not every tool, technique, and practice has always been approved by the z. did anyone here ever use 11mm rope before it was approved by the z? of course! how about one handing a saw? not approved by the z, does anyone on this board do it? yup, lots of people. just because it is not approved doesn't deem it pornographic. testing new methods and discusssing them with some of the best brains in the biz to make them better, is one of the steps in getting new methods to become approved. right? that's what I am trying to do, albeit uneloquently and unsuccessfull1....is to discuss this with people who have been doing tree work and writing standards since before I was born.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I have been a crane,(boom truck) operator or climber since 91'., I just can't understand why you think your technique is better for our industry? After all Norm has been a leader is our industry longer than you have been alive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't belive Bull is saying it's better just a different way of doing it. Don't even think the ball or diamond is the prob. Its the wire cinch after the ball no? Not all cranes come with that type of cinch. And what about k booms they get used like a crane also, it's a boom truck, no ball, where to tie in. For you though Tod I've been doing this since 85', does it make me know more than you? I don't belive so, may have seen more than you, but i wont say I know more.
 
with the k-booms I have seen guys use three slings and locking carabiners through a hole in the boom. that way you are away from the hook. I think it is unrealistic to say there is only one way to do anything. standards are guidelines to adhere to yes. there will always be variations. as far as safety records that is somewhat ascued. there have been people in this area that have done clearly the wrong thing for 35 years, like not wearing any safety gear, because they have not had an issue to this point does not make their practice marketable. it is great that we have mentors in this industry but everyday someone younger or older has another great idea. I respect everyone's idea but it may not work for every single person every single time.
 
I was just giving a background, it seemed BB needed to know about norms background, so I thought I should give mine.The point some are trying to make is that for a standard to be it has to be somewhat universal. I have yet to see a crane that was rented to have a locking gate. So now what do you do. What I like about Norms technique is that it's a simple solution to a complex problem. You have a complex solution.You need to juggle rigging and climbing. Most people use slings that need to come off the hook creating another complexity. Do you think people should use your tech. or norms? You seem to have a great passion for this. So if you were teaching a crane course what would you teach?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The link can load on the locked gate and break the gate and the climber would free fall if not lanyarded in.


[/ QUOTE ]

Norm, with all due respect, that statement is implausible, and, actually, impossible, as Bull employs the masterlink, behind the slings.

My operator does the same thing.....
reason being, something about the way his cable and ball are setup, twisting occurs when under load.

While I prefer to tie in above the ball, or on top of it, it is crystal clear to me that the masterlink setup is bombproof, ANSI compliant or not. (I use a soft cambium saver, and choke it right to the shank of the ball.)
 
hmmm...


[ QUOTE ]
...it is crystal clear to me that the masterlink setup is bombproof...

[/ QUOTE ]


but tod k...


[ QUOTE ]
I have yet to see a crane that was rented to have a locking gate.

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
(I use a soft cambium saver, and choke it right to the shank of the ball.)



[/ QUOTE ]


How do you choke it Roger? Do you actually tie a knot with the cambium saver?
 
should anyone really be using a crane without a locking gate, or no gate for that matter? that must be quite interesting when laying down pieces, the load shifts, and the sling only has to ride off the tip of the hook, not break the gate off then roll off.
 
tod I would teach all applicapble techniques, and tout their virtues and downfalls. let the user decide. I have seen some of the courses/seminars that you have taught. you don't teach 1 method, noone really does with anything in arboriculture. every tree, site, operation, arear of the country does it differently.

tod and roger raise excellent points.


tod

if the crane comes out gateless, I don't feel it should be used, period. slings can jump off while setting pieces down. if it is used, the masterlink set-up obviously would be far too dangerous and should not be used.

roger

you are correct. if the rental co. is cheap and sends out a crane with spin cable.....you run the risk of killing the climber with norms set-up. if the operator spools out at anything but a snails pace with no load on the line, as in putting down a climber or piece, the load line/becket/wedgle will spin quite fast. this is obviously very dangerous and should be avoided at all costs.
 
Besides all that , isn't easier to tighten up the straps when your tied in above the hook ? There has to be crowd control on the hook . No locking gate is just asking for trouble.
 
no crowding on the hook. we use tufflex slings sometimes 2-3 and the link. plenty of room. tighten them up? all you do is throw the sling around the piece, open the shackle on the and of the sling, put it around both legs, and put the shackle back on. then if you need to you can tail out your hitch while the operator takes a strain on the load line. same as all the other tie in variations.


the most important part of any new system, piece of gear, or new technique is fully understanding how to use it, and its limitations.
 
I think tod meant that the hook has a gate, but it isn't locked. This has been my experience too with rental units.

I've also seen guys continue to use a hook without a gate--they simply girth hitch the sling.

But, even though I have seen it done without a gate, I completely agree with you, a hook without a gate should not be used.

I'm curious, what do you find easier or better about working with the climbing line on the hook vs. above the ball?
 
[ QUOTE ]
So if you were teaching a crane course what would you teach?

[/ QUOTE ]

First would be why tie into the crane at all. This should be a last resort. Less your fat and lazy. Most rental cranes (8 out of 10) will not even let you tie into the crane at all. Why?, cuase it is not allowed by industry sandtards for crane use. Supposed to use a man basket!!!! Now bring us Back to tree work. Only real way you can tie into a crane, is to be using an uncerted non lic rental or self owned crane. Hah!!! Last place I want to be is hanging from a cable 120' in the air with some non lic, or proven by industry standards person running it. Maybe this is why we see so many tree related mishappings. Funny how we have certs for just about anything to do with tree work, but the one that can be the most deadliest there are none.
 
I personally don't care about what you, the z, or anybody eles for that matter, has to say about climbers tiing into the ball or the boom. All the others have proven it to be unsafe, only reason it's allowed in tree work is cuase certain voices preach for it. Most likly the same voices that preach to keep Certing and lic out of it. But hey thats just me venting I guess. Maybe after about 80-100 more deaths and the Z will open it's eyes to see that Tree work and cranes need to be tested.
 
I like my life line below the b all and unable to climb the load line. with our cranes the masterlink system works very well. when I happen to climb with others cranes, I use whatever the operator is comfy with so long as its not insane. if given the choice I use the masterlink setup.


hollen

osha hasn't updated the crane standard in 30 years! the z is updated every few. theres also no osha law for hydraulic boom cranes/trucks. that's more scary to me. I agree with you, when you can tie into the tree do it! when its safer and faster to tie into the crane, do that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

New threads New posts

Back
Top Bottom