Triple overhand vs. Double overhand

SingleJack

SingleJack

Participating member
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Question: Is the Triple Overhand stopper knot really better (stronger, more stable, etc.) than the Double Overhand stopper knot? OR, is it just bulkier with no added strength or stability?

Multipleoverhandknot.jpg


Double Overhand stopper knot shown here on the bridge of Buckingham's Ergovation saddle:

16906_012909_enlarge.jpg
 
In some cordage, like New England Ropes Tech Cord it is MANDATORY that a triple overhand be used. The cord can loosen resulting in failure. In more supple cordage this isn't as necessary. With the high mod cordage using triples is a good idea. check the manufacturers recommendations and also Google to find out what the accepted practice is.

Leave tails AT LEAST four times the diameter of the rope after dressing and setting any knot/hitch.
 
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Leave tails AT LEAST four times the diameter of the rope after dressing and setting any knot/hitch.

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This is also true when tying such knots as the double or triple Fisherman’s knot.
 
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It should also go without saying that you WOULD NOT use a Fisherman's knot as a stopper knot!

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Huh? Seems an excellent stopper. As Tom mentioned when joining two ropes that have a slippery core (HTP, NE Ropes Tech Cord etc.) the triple is mandatory to prevent core slip through on shock load.

What don't you like about a double overhand for a stopper? If the tail is long enough on a double overhand stopper there shouldn't be any problem, core only slips so far for the high modulus ropes/cords
-moss
 
[ QUOTE ]
In some cordage, like New England Ropes Tech Cord it is MANDATORY that a triple overhand be used. The cord can loosen resulting in failure. In more supple cordage this isn't as necessary. With the high mod cordage using triples is a good idea. check the manufacturers recommendations and also Google to find out what the accepted practice is.

Leave tails AT LEAST four times the diameter of the rope after dressing and setting any knot/hitch.

[/ QUOTE ]

What Tom said, with the exception of:
rope tails 5 TIMES the rope diameter.
 
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It should also go without saying that you WOULD NOT use a Fisherman's knot as a stopper knot!

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Huh? Seems an excellent stopper. As Tom mentioned when joining two ropes that have a slippery core (HTP, NE Ropes Tech Cord etc.) the triple is mandatory to prevent core slip through on shock load.

What don't you like about a double overhand for a stopper? If the tail is long enough on a double overhand stopper there shouldn't be any problem, core only slips so far for the high modulus ropes/cords
-moss

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Moss, I was refering to the Fisherman's knot, not the Double (or triple) Overhand knot. I use the double Fisherman's when attaching a biner to my line.

If I were to use it to attach my bridge to the saddle above, it would be too bulky and the tail would be on the inside of the bridge, not the outside, which could interfer with the slinding ring. If you tried to tie it with the tail on the outside, I think it would act as a Slip knot?
 
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It should also go without saying that you WOULD NOT use a Fisherman's knot as a stopper knot!

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Seems an excellent stopper. As Tom mentioned when joining two ropes that have a slippery core (HTP, NE Ropes Tech Cord etc.) the triple is mandatory to prevent core slip through on shock load.

What don't you like about a double overhand for a stopper? If the tail is long enough on a double overhand stopper there shouldn't be any problem, core only slips so far for the high modulus ropes/cords
-moss

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Moss, I was refering to the Fisherman's knot, not the Double (or triple) Overhand knot. I use the double Fisherman's when attaching a biner to my line.

If I were to use it to attach my bridge to the saddle above, it would be too bulky and the tail would be on the inside of the bridge, not the outside, which could interfer with the slinding ring. If you tried to tie it with the tail on the outside, I think it would act as a Slip knot?

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Aren't they the same knot with different names? Double Fisherman's and double overhand?
 
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It should also go without saying that you WOULD NOT use a Fisherman's knot as a stopper knot!

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Seems an excellent stopper. As Tom mentioned when joining two ropes that have a slippery core (HTP, NE Ropes Tech Cord etc.) the triple is mandatory to prevent core slip through on shock load.

What don't you like about a double overhand for a stopper? If the tail is long enough on a double overhand stopper there shouldn't be any problem, core only slips so far for the high modulus ropes/cords
-moss

[/ QUOTE ]

Moss, I was refering to the Fisherman's knot, not the Double (or triple) Overhand knot. I use the double Fisherman's when attaching a biner to my line.

If I were to use it to attach my bridge to the saddle above, it would be too bulky and the tail would be on the inside of the bridge, not the outside, which could interfer with the slinding ring. If you tried to tie it with the tail on the outside, I think it would act as a Slip knot?

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Aren't they the same knot with different names? Double Fisherman's and double overhand?

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Norm and Moss, you guys are right, I was thinking of the Double Fisherman's Loop (DFL), which is one half of the Double Fisherman's Knot. The DFL makes a really good rope termination for a carabiner.

AGAIN, sorry for the confusion - my bad.
 
The question --which even had graphics for assist-- concerns tying
a <u>stopper</u> knot, not joining ends of ropes, which is the lone place
I've read a warning about using a Double Strangle (Tpl.Overhand).

The answer is "There doesn't seem to be much testing of this, but a
surmise is that the extra wrap of the Triple Overhand seems to offer
little in strength and maybe something more in material to loosen
(i.e., to enable stretching and deformation under load)." Frankly,
I'd be interested in re-orienting/-dressing that Double Overhand
into a sort of Anchor Bend (aka Fisherman's Bend -- a hitch) in
reverse. (Such things show up in stoppers I've found in commercial
fishing gear.)

- - - - - -

As for the use of the Double Strangle (aka Trpl.Overhand) component
in the Triple Fish /Double Grapevine in some hi-mod cordage, that's
to prevent slippage, not loosening. (One of the old Tom Moyer
oddball tests had a cord w/Technora core pull out of a Grapevine
(slow-pull, not "shock loading").)

*kN*
 
See the attached article. It explains the confused terminology about these knots.

For the quick explanation look at the photos and read the conclusion (the last page). The bulk of the article is just suporting documentation and research.


Regarding some of the statements in this thread:


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I use the double Fisherman's when attaching a biner to my line.


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I think you mean the Scaffold knot. See Figures 2A and 2B in the attached article.


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Aren't they the same knot with different names? Double Fisherman's and double overhand?


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They are different knots. The Double Fisherman's (Figures 1A and 1B in the attached article) is composed of two (2) double overhand knots (Figures 3A and 3B) each tied around the standing part of the other.


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I was thinking of the Double Fisherman's Loop (DFL), which is one half of the Double Fisherman's Knot. The DFL makes a really good rope termination for a carabiner.


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'Double Fisherman's Loop' is a relatively recent name that tries to reconcile some of the confused terminology regarding 'Double Fisherman's'. But, it only causes more confusion because a 'Fisherman's Loop' is a completely different knot. 'Double Fisherman's Loop' has no historical basis and is just one more term that is used in different ways by different people.

Depending on how you halve it, one half of the Double Fisherman's knot is either:

--a single fishermans (Figure 4--two (2) Single Overhand knots, each tied around the standing part of the other)

or



--one (1) double overhand knot (i.e. if you untied the double overhand knot in the red rope in Figure 1A and pulled it out of the remaining double overhand knot that is in the green rope, you would be left with one double overhand knot, which is the knot shown is Figures 3A and 3B. Put simply, untie the knot in the red rope and pull it out, you are left with the same knot as 3A/3B).

Maybe Tom could put this article in the Articles section here on TBzz?

Regarding the original question (which as kN noted asks about the stopper knot), I have not noticed that the double overhand creeps or slips, but I have not had it in use for as long as some of the other, related knots.

Regarding the other, related knots, I have used the scaffold knot for years to form the loops on my hitch cords, and I have noticed some creepage in some of the cords.

This:

http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/50/knotrope.html

is a study that looked at the breaking strength of, among others, the single fisherman's and the double fisherman's knots.

Chris I still owe you an email about the chain saw training.
 

Attachments

[/ QUOTE ] Chris I still owe you an email about the chain saw training.

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Mahk, you have a good memory and thanks for providing some clearity about the names of the differnt knots.
 
There are some reasons I try to use the name "Strangle (knot)" when
talking about these particular knotted structures:
- "S." pretty well denotes just one thing, not a buffet of choices;
- and the "S." nicely matches what I call its "overwraps", that doubling
--so called-- of the Fish. that begets security (and which part simply
doesn't exist in the (Single) Fisherman's/Overhand);
- and the "S." can be cited neatly as the component of these other things.

So, tying that "noose-hitch" to a 'biner, I'd say "Strangle Noose";
"Scaffold knot" (Ashley's #1120) has an additional wrap, which in
my nomenclature would garner the "Double" prefix -- and connote
the number of overwraps, thus.

Similarly, "Grapevine bend" has "S." components and if a "Triple Fish."
is wanted, "Double G." gets that, again with hinted count of wraps.

Strictly speaking, it would be at the stopper knot point that "S." hits
a bump, as it is pretty much defined as being tied around something,
besides air; it is, after all, a rather good binder (one might secure
a coil of rope with it, or whip ends with some &lt;multiple&gt;S.(e.g., on 9mm
rope, mason line w/5 overwraps can be hauled damn tight (squeeze with
pliers to try to distribute tension throughout the wraps) .


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I use the double Fisherman's when attaching a biner to my line.

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I think you mean the Scaffold knot. See Figures 2A and 2B in the attached article.

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Though, again, Ashley shows the two overwraps.
Btw, I'd like to see the Anchor/Fisherman's Bend form of the Dbl.Oh.
tried in this structure vice the Strangle form.

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Aren't they the same knot with different names? Double Fisherman's and double overhand?

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They are different knots. The Double Fisherman's (Figures 1A and 1B in the attached article) is composed of two (2) double overhand knots (Figures 3A and 3B) each tied around the standing part of the other.

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In angling, one has the Uni knot and then the Double Uni (also called
the "Grinner" ) where just this sort of different doubling is implied.
And, these I think are intended to be multiple-Strangle structures,
but typically the exact form is often left unspecified (some tying steps do show
an apparent transformation from the Anchor-Bend to Strangle forms,
which isn't all so forthcoming in some fish lines, I can attest.)

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I was thinking of the Double Fisherman's Loop (DFL), which is one half of the Double Fisherman's Knot. The DFL makes a really good rope termination for a carabiner.

[/ QUOTE ] "Double Fisherman's Loop" is a relatively recent name that tries to reconcile some of the confused terminology regarding "Double Fisherman's". But, it only causes more confusion because a 'Fisherman's Loop' is a completely different knot. "Double Fisherman's Loop" has no historical basis and is just one more term that is used in different ways by different people.

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Hmmmm. In rockclimbing, there was a (IIRC) "One-&amp;-a-Half Fisherman's"
eyeknot, formed with an Overhand in the mainline, the Strangle making
the secure finish -- thought to be easier to untie than a Grapevine eyeknot
would be (double "hmmmm" on that, if fallen upon!).

*kN*
 
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"Scaffold knot" (Ashley's #1120) has an additional wrap,

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Though, again, Ashley shows the two overwraps.


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Yes. Its noted and explained in the introduction, text, and conclusion of the article attached to my previous post.
 
Thanks for all the post, everyone - several important points - now I'm confused.

Whether it's a double whatever or a tripple whatever ... I'm looking for the most 'bomb-proof' stopper knot - an axe knot!

As Tom points out, it's certainly cordage dependent as whether to use a double or tripple or ... ??? I always thought the tripple was best for all cordage. But, there seems to have been some implications that the double is, sometimes, actually better for a permanent stopper.

<u>Regardless of what it is called</u>; the example stopper, shown below, really only needs to be "untied" when replacing the bridge. So, it is OK, even desireable, to NEED an axe to 'untie' it.

16906_012909_enlarge.jpg
 
Tribal wisdom time here...

The tribe seems to feel that a double overhand with this rope configuration is sufficient.

Leaving long tails is important. You could measure the length of the tail and see if there is any creep. Or maybe stitch the round turns to themselves to lock the hitch in place.
 
In some situations where a knot will be left for a long time, I'll sharpie a line on the tail of the rope right where it enters the knot. This lets me monitor if this tail is getting sucked in over time.

love
nick
 
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