Tree Devotionals (Contain Bible Verses, so enter at your own risk)

Reach said:
A lot of the answers you are looking for can be found among the articles at this link: https://answersingenesis.org/geology/plate-tectonics/

Ken Ham is one who knows his stuff and can prove everything he speaks about. He is one I have looked to for answers about creation and the fossil record for many years.
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Would you provide some of Ken Ham's work.








I was surprised to read that geology is full of circular reasoning. How funny is that?!
 
Tom Dunlap said:
That be me.

YE makes absolutely no sense to me.
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It's pseudoscience Tom. That's why it doesn't make sense to you. It is a modern attack on science much like Islam's attack on science beginning about AD 1,100.

The Young Earth followers are closely associated with the Creationist followers.

What it is is religious people trying to mold science to fit their religious views, and it is a miserable fail.

A giant step backwards, supposedly in the name of some God.

 
CaPowell said:
I beg to differ, TreeCo. The same could be said of the THEORY of evolution. Right off the top of my head, it breaks the First and Second LAWS of Thermodynamics and it also breaks the LAW of Biogenesis. Very scientific... It macroevolution is not observable or replicable.
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I know where you are coming from.

And am sorry to see it.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
...what about the nine hundred year old guys in the bible?
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I believe that is true and see no problem with it. Just because we don't observe people living close to a thousand years today doesn't mean people couldn't have lived longer in the past.

God says they did, but you seem to leave God out of the Bible.

Adam and Eve were created with perfect bodies, therefore, their DNA was perfect and free from any mutations. God called His creation "very good." Mutations are genetic mess ups, they are mistakes, so God would not have called them "very good". Satan tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God in the Garden of Eden by eating the fruit of the only tree God had told them not to eat from (the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) and by doing so, they brought sin and death into a perfect world. This is known as the Fall. God had told them not to eat from this tree, for if they did, they would surely die. And, they surely did die, albeit not immediately. Their bodies started the natural process of aging and deteriorating.

"For the wages of sin is death." God showed them grace by killing an animal and making clothes for them. He kicked them out of the Garden to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life, which was previously not forbidden. This is not because God was being a big meany-head, but because He was being kind. It would be cruel for them to live forever in a fallen, sin-filled world. We can look around at the world today and see that it is broken.

The world became increasingly wicked (I don't think we have any idea how wicked it was, God does not hold back on His description of the old world in Genesis chapter 6). So, God decided to destroy the world and everyone/everything in it, except for righteous Noah and his family and representative pairs from each animal "kind". And He did (I have read quite a bit to the contrary of what you just posted about there not being enough water. That has been proven false and I'll have to dig it up for you).

So, now all humans can be traced back to Noah's three sons.

Mutations began occuring at some point after Adam and would serve as one likely explanation for the shortened life-spans. After the flood, the ages gradually tapered down to what they are today. By the time of Moses in Exodus (just the second book of the Bible), the lifespans were what we would call normal. See what Moses says in Psalm 90:10, "As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, or if due to strength, eighty years, yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; for soon it is gone and we fly away."

Another explanation for the lifespans is the "Canopy Theory" which you mentioned previously. The pre-Flood world was completely different. The Bible does not give much detail about it, but some folks believe that the hydrologic cycle was different then due to an atmospheric layer of water vapor and that there was no rain on the earth up until the flood. They get this from Genesis 2:5-6, which says, "For the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground." And from Genesis 1:6-8, which says, "Then God said, 'Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.' God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. God called the expanse heaven (sky)." So, this is debated between Bible scholars. Ken Ham, for example, does not believe there was a canopy, while John and Henry Morris do. Those that do propose that the canopy may have provided some health benefits by shielding the sun's harmful rays and in turn, could have played a role in the longer lifespans. The canopy fell apart in the flood, hence the gradual decline in the ages given. Ken Ham believes mutations adequately explain the shortened life spans. Either way, I just say all of that because you said you wanted to know where Creationists are coming from.
 
DID Anyone read the whole article that I linked in #85?

Perfectly good explanation of the flood. It also brings up the narratives of Noah's and Gilgamesh's floods that are blended together in the bible.

By now I should know better than to ask for an answer. I'm trying to understand how YE can be believed. Blind faith is a scary concept. It was when the bible was written and re-written. It still is in the social-political world we live in now.
 
Noah's post flood dessert?

www.bbc.com

The world's oldest dessert?

Although chickpeas and beans don't usually belong in a pudding, they are core ingredients in one of the oldest – and, some say, one of the most delicious – desserts in the world.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

According to Islamic tradition, ashure – which is frequently dubbed "Noah's Pudding" – was prepared as a celebratory dish by the prophet's family after surviving the great flood and washing up on Mount Ararat, on the fringes of what is today the north-eastern borderlands of Turkey. Legend has it that this cornucopia of a dessert, which usually includes around a dozen different grains, fruits, nuts and legumes, was concocted by combining whatever ingredients were still left on the Ark.
 
HigherGroundArborist said:
Scientists are making new discoveries everyday. I think we can all agree on that.

As for current evidence that you may not have seen, well there is a wealth of information in the link @Reach posted. Take this example:

answersingenesis.org

Amazingly Preserved Leaves

Beautifully preserved fossils are so common that we overlook how unusual they are.
answersingenesis.org answersingenesis.org

I thought it appropriate to discuss leaf fossils ;-) How would evolutionists explain MILLIONS of leaf fossils that are perfectly flat and perfectly preserved? Truly remarkable!
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Magic?
 
Tom Dunlap said:
Are these mutations different than changes from evolution?
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I have not had a chance to read your flood article yet, Tom, but I will read it in it's entirety soon.

In regards to one of your other questions comparing the Biblical flood with the epic of Gilgamesh, I think the true explanation is pretty obvious. The Biblical flood was real. It was huge. It had a life-changing impact on Noah, his three sons, and their wives. I believe Noah went on to live another three hundred years. Surely, Noah would have told his grandchildren and great grandchildren about the flood. Not too long after this, the Bible tells of the dispersion of people at the tower of Babel. People were not spreading out like God had commanded and built a grand tower out of pride. So, God confused their languages. The people dispersed over the whole earth. Here is where we get our different people groups from. Genetics comes into play here too with dominant and recessive traits...

Almost every people group has it's own flood story. I think one researcher estimated between 300 and 500 separate flood stories from around the world and had documented 300. Most of them are remarkably similar to the Biblical account, but muddy some facts. A lot of times, the names are very close to "Noah." Its kind of like playing "telephone" where one kid whispers into the next kids ear and they keep passing the original sentence around the class. By the end of the line, there might be a slight resemblance, but the sentence is mangled. Studies have been done on the measurements for the Biblical ark. It is perfect. It is nearly unflippable and readily rights itself. Barges were designed off of its measurements. The ark in Gilgamesh is circular and has been shown to flip/sink readily. Gilgamesh got the order of Noah sending out the raven and dove wrong. Gilgamesh's order makes no sense (dove, then raven). Noah sent out the hardy raven first that could scavenge and find food. If it couldn't, then it wouldn't be could to come off yet. And then, Noah sent out the more delicate dove. Once the dove could make it, he knew it was time to come off the ark. Gilgamesh may have been written first, but the history given in Genesis occured first.

As far as genetic mutations leading to decreased lifespan, yeah, why not? Mutations are a loss of information. Yes, sometimes there are things like an extra finger or head or arm, but that is not beneficial, and it is not anything new. There is no new information being added to the genome.

From what I've read, there aren't any known beneficial mutations. Have you heard of any?

I do not believe macroevolution has ever occurred on any level. There is no way all life started off in some primordial sludge as a single-celled organism and all of the information in our genes just magically piled up over the years. Lizards did not become birds or whales become dogs by slow changes. Every fossil in the record are fully formed (no half wing/legs). Many fossils proposed to be a hundred million years old are virtually identical to specimens today. Our bodies are amazing things and libraries are filled with books covering a plethora of body systems and doctors spend their whole lives trying to understand these systems. In my opinion, there is no way these intricate systems could have arisen by blind random chance.

Microevolution, on the other hand, is a different matter. I don't know that is the best word for it. We can observe and manipulate breeding and speciation (is that a word? New species...). But no new information is being added to the genes. Isolation, breeding, and dominant genes are just bringing out certain traits and characteristics.

I just wrote that off the top of my head, so please be gentle on me!IMG_20220405_202423006.jpgIMG_20220405_201714455.jpg
 
SO let me see if I got this straight.

Before Noah packed up the cats there were all of those are species of cats. Genetics being what it is Noah chose one cat as the repository of cat-future. Flood happens and all of the other cats drown. Noah is left with one species of cat. Then the breeding program starts over. Now we have how many species of cats again?

This sounds like some vaudeville magicians show.

I'll park this search here in case I have the inclination to read more. You mentioned that you never heard of a beneficial mutation so you might find something here.

 
Tom Dunlap said:
SO let me see if I got this straight.

Before Noah packed up the cats there were all of those are species of cats. Genetics being what it is Noah chose one cat as the repository of cat-future. Flood happens and all of the other cats drown. Noah is left with one species of cat. Then the breeding program starts over. Now we have how many species of cats again?
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We don't know what specific species there were before the flood. The Bible says Noah took two of each "kind". What's a kind? They didn't have modern taxonomy back then. Does "kind" correlate to "order" or "family" or "genus"? We don't know.
 
LOL

Lets set aside the tap dance claim of not knowing pre-flood cats...or even the one pair on the arc...that one pair is now how many species of cats? How does that happen? What about all the other critters? What sort of accelerated breeding program was instituted to go from one pooter cat to umpteen

Explain the plants too? How did they survive being under water? sure...some of the above water plants we have now could have survived but what about arid dwellers...like those old ones out in the North American West...the bristlecones, sequoia and redwood? None of those do too well as underwater growers.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
LOL

Lets set aside the tap dance claim of not knowing pre-flood cats...or even the one pair on the arc...that one pair is now how many species of cats? How does that happen? What about all the other critters? What sort of accelerated breeding program was instituted to go from one pooter cat to umpteen

Explain the plants too? How did they survive being under water? sure...some of the above water plants we have now could have survived but what about arid dwellers...like those old ones out in the North American West...the bristlecones, sequoia and redwood? None of those do too well as underwater growers.
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Like I said, who knows how many representatives for cats were on the ark. Look at the great genetic variety of dogs. Teacup Yorkies, Saint Bernards, and Great Danes are all dogs. They look nothing alike to me, but are all the same species. There is vast potential and variety within the genes of the dog species. What we do not see is a dog becoming something else. Same goes for cats, monkeys, etc. We can observe bacteria changing, but at the end of the day, it is still bacteria and always will be.

I've always wondered about the plants and would like to know more. Seeds floating? I don't know. Good question. Once again, I take the Bible as God's word and fully believe if He is capable of creating plants, surely He is also smart enough to find a way to make sure they grew again after the flood. Look up the Biblical timeline. Noah was on the ark for at least a year. I don't remember how long it was after the waters receded before they disembarked, maybe a few months. They remained on long enough for things to have sprouted. The dove brought back an olive leaf, right?
 
If the god you're speaking of can figure out how to have plants regrow in the one or two growing seasons affected by Noah's flood then she is quite a magician. Where did that ability to regrow go? If she did come up with the adaptation why isn't it written about in the bible? Is she being humble and not taking credit?

There has to be an explanation of how one pair of cats, dogs or horses so quickly rebred themselves. Almost like an accordion.

In Noah's case, the land where he was from is almost dead flat. Water goes there and doesn't run off. The marshes are still like that. I read about all that in one of the articles I linked.
 
Tom Dunlap said:
If the god you're speaking of can figure out how to have plants regrow in the one or two growing seasons affected by Noah's flood then she is quite a magician. Where did that ability to regrow go? If she did come up with the adaptation why isn't it written about in the bible? Is she being humble and not taking credit?

There has to be an explanation of how one pair of cats, dogs or horses so quickly rebred themselves. Almost like an accordion.

In Noah's case, the land where he was from is almost dead flat. Water goes there and doesn't run off. The marshes are still like that. I read about all that in one of the articles I linked.
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My God is not a she and nowhere did He ever refer to Himself that way. I'm curious, why would you use that pronoun other than to bait?
 
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