TheTreeSpyder
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What are the effects of cutting the Top cut of the face too far, as opposed to the bottom cut of the face?
Top FaceCut too Far
- Thread starter TheTreeSpyder
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With one scenario you form a Dutchman. With the other, it's a Dutchman.
TheTreeSpyder
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Both axises form a Dutchman? Equally? Just as immediately? Angle of topcut that crosses make any differance to minimizing this?
Is not the horizontal stop the problem, not the vertical so much?
Is not the horizontal stop the problem, not the vertical so much?
It seems to me that cutting the top cut too far does more to undermine the integrity of the hinge because potential hinge fibers are being severed. As opposed to bottom cut too far creating essentially, a smaller notch (Dutchman). Why do the Dutch get such a bad rap. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
TheTreeSpyder
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- Florida>>> USA
i am at least i am at least talking about that Jarod, or more comparatively red cut or black cut going to far in relation to the other; past the intersection.
The face severs potential hinge fibers, but it seems the 'floor' is the stop/push that closes early if kerfed beyond intersection. i think the steepr the top cut, the less fiber violated by extended top cut; and that the closing early problem isn't the same. Especially, in a solid green tree, that doesn't let go of rear side of kerf on uppercut too far. If those fibers do seperate (vertically) i thin, the flap of hinge could concieveably flow forward the length of the kerf and stop, quite fairly. But, could still flex forward without compression, or very little. The more vertical the top cut, allowing that more. i think the top cut extended still allows more flexability than stop, being a more vertical violation, on vertical columns. It is the horizontal kerf that gives more the machine command to stop, being a leveraged violation across the fiber.
The different directions in the cuts making the differance i think. So might be reverse for Humboldt, as bottom cut is of more vertical axis, parallel to the fiber.
i beleive there are some powerful uses for a dutch lift in face; very judiciously on just 1 side (lean) and probably in lower loading ranges in respect to all the warnings.
Or, something like that...
The face severs potential hinge fibers, but it seems the 'floor' is the stop/push that closes early if kerfed beyond intersection. i think the steepr the top cut, the less fiber violated by extended top cut; and that the closing early problem isn't the same. Especially, in a solid green tree, that doesn't let go of rear side of kerf on uppercut too far. If those fibers do seperate (vertically) i thin, the flap of hinge could concieveably flow forward the length of the kerf and stop, quite fairly. But, could still flex forward without compression, or very little. The more vertical the top cut, allowing that more. i think the top cut extended still allows more flexability than stop, being a more vertical violation, on vertical columns. It is the horizontal kerf that gives more the machine command to stop, being a leveraged violation across the fiber.
The different directions in the cuts making the differance i think. So might be reverse for Humboldt, as bottom cut is of more vertical axis, parallel to the fiber.
i beleive there are some powerful uses for a dutch lift in face; very judiciously on just 1 side (lean) and probably in lower loading ranges in respect to all the warnings.
Or, something like that...
If you were to cut beyond the apex the same lineal distance either way, the cut closest to being perpendicular to the grain would compromise the greater amount of hinge wood. In that sense, I guess, if you have to do it it would be better to do it on the more-angled face.
Neither scenario gets you much further away than the other from the consequences of having the Dutchman, though. Right, Ken?
Glen
Neither scenario gets you much further away than the other from the consequences of having the Dutchman, though. Right, Ken?
Glen
TheTreeSpyder
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- Florida>>> USA
Not sure about that. i'm thinking that a horizontal space gives ledge that closes, pushes back, taking control pressure off tensioned hinge fibers that you can manipulate from the rear. Losing control, and energy force of tree weight, wedge and line pull jsut get pitted against that compression, not giving rear control, at this angle (horizontal/ cut on vertical fiber) the fiber is disconnected.
At a more vertical violation, 'toothpicks' removed, shaved etc. by crossing of upper cut can flex forward better, than stop of step from fiber broken across? the angle of cut, to the angle of fiber has changed; i see more chance of flexing as kerf closed (if kerf did).
i think the step incurred by a horizontal crossing cut, closes into the columnar strength of the fibers, giving less resistance, than any type of horizontal 'step' ; that clsoes and pushes acorss the columnar strength of the fibers/toothpicks bending them. They bend more easily at that angle, and just close and hold fast; agianst their stronger, columnar strength taking a step. The step is really in the horizontal, as it pushes up on closing, stepping up. If the binding of the fibers let go and flex forward, the closing of topcut crossing pushes back, flexxing the fiber i think.
Anyway, i have long thought that crossing horizontal cut worse; and in essence proved it backwards (of course) to myself; as i couldn't play a swing dutchman out of 'step' from running top cut over on one side. So, i found that had less power to screw me up, as well as less power to help me; when applying those strategies.
At a more vertical violation, 'toothpicks' removed, shaved etc. by crossing of upper cut can flex forward better, than stop of step from fiber broken across? the angle of cut, to the angle of fiber has changed; i see more chance of flexing as kerf closed (if kerf did).
i think the step incurred by a horizontal crossing cut, closes into the columnar strength of the fibers, giving less resistance, than any type of horizontal 'step' ; that clsoes and pushes acorss the columnar strength of the fibers/toothpicks bending them. They bend more easily at that angle, and just close and hold fast; agianst their stronger, columnar strength taking a step. The step is really in the horizontal, as it pushes up on closing, stepping up. If the binding of the fibers let go and flex forward, the closing of topcut crossing pushes back, flexxing the fiber i think.
Anyway, i have long thought that crossing horizontal cut worse; and in essence proved it backwards (of course) to myself; as i couldn't play a swing dutchman out of 'step' from running top cut over on one side. So, i found that had less power to screw me up, as well as less power to help me; when applying those strategies.
TheTreeSpyder
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- Location
- Florida>>> USA
[ QUOTE ]
Why do the Dutch get such a bad rap. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, whats that about??? /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Why do the Dutch get such a bad rap. /forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
yeah, whats that about??? /forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
It will surely depend on the individual tree but I've never really had a need for a dutchman as I think the turning of the tree is more predicable when using a tapered hinge.
TheTreeSpyder
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- Florida>>> USA
Dutch in side can serve into the tapered pull. Lots of 'in tree' uses to me, 'sliding' across to rigging, while keeping higher and providing less shock to rig. Some of these i try to get 180 turn with no tear off, not the same as felling stuff!
And in solid face, but low elasticity wood (junky wood, dead wood-but not rotted, mebbe cold wood- but my lil'Fl. butt will leave that one to you! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif); the push of the dutch in one side can take some of the strain of the pull correction from the less elastic fibers, by giving push at same time as the pull. Just a lil extra to sprinkle on top!
dutching can be very powerfull; most of the lessons in playing with it; reinstill efforts to make sure it doesn't exist unplanned, and even then judiciously used. New respect for carving precise faces like a craftsman can be given. Mostly looking at extended bottom cut on that imagery.
And in solid face, but low elasticity wood (junky wood, dead wood-but not rotted, mebbe cold wood- but my lil'Fl. butt will leave that one to you! /forum/images/graemlins/crazy.gif); the push of the dutch in one side can take some of the strain of the pull correction from the less elastic fibers, by giving push at same time as the pull. Just a lil extra to sprinkle on top!
dutching can be very powerfull; most of the lessons in playing with it; reinstill efforts to make sure it doesn't exist unplanned, and even then judiciously used. New respect for carving precise faces like a craftsman can be given. Mostly looking at extended bottom cut on that imagery.
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
All you're doing with the swing dutchman is causing the hinge to prematurely break usually on one side or the other forcing the tree to go where you want it to at least when used as intended.
TheTreeSpyder
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- Florida>>> USA
i think a kerf (or later dutch close on that side)on lean side in face, with proper forces, casues a tear across, forcing a type of tapered hinge, fat on the pull side. Once again all the Dutch warnings lend me to using it in lower loading ranges of small trees and branches while climbing.
i mock the swing dutchy with a faceless hinge, deleivering to the side of compression axis sometimes. Using a large kerf to releive some compression on side hinge and also to push towards side hinge as it is pulling. Faceless hinge + Kerf Step Corner; taking the theories a step further.
i mock the swing dutchy with a faceless hinge, deleivering to the side of compression axis sometimes. Using a large kerf to releive some compression on side hinge and also to push towards side hinge as it is pulling. Faceless hinge + Kerf Step Corner; taking the theories a step further.
- Location
- PA
[ QUOTE ]
All you're doing with the swing dutchman is causing the hinge to prematurely break usually on one side or the other forcing the tree to go where you want it to at least when used as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think most people only see the pull in spydy's explanation. The push from the kerf would be like backing over a wheel chock (rotating triangle) Of course the pull would be like the brakes only working on the opposite side (of the chock). Add enough momentum and LOOKOUT!!!
Mike
All you're doing with the swing dutchman is causing the hinge to prematurely break usually on one side or the other forcing the tree to go where you want it to at least when used as intended.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think most people only see the pull in spydy's explanation. The push from the kerf would be like backing over a wheel chock (rotating triangle) Of course the pull would be like the brakes only working on the opposite side (of the chock). Add enough momentum and LOOKOUT!!!
Mike
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
I don't see any push in a swing dutchman, it appears to be all gravitational pull to me.
I can see push with a step dutchman prompting the gravitational forces to add more force to turn the tree but that's it.
Tension takes place on the side of the dutchman and compression on the opposite side as the hinge begins to fail.
I can see push with a step dutchman prompting the gravitational forces to add more force to turn the tree but that's it.
Tension takes place on the side of the dutchman and compression on the opposite side as the hinge begins to fail.
TheTreeSpyder
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- Florida>>> USA
Kev,
The theory is to place Dutchman on lean/power/compression side. Let it close early and push to center face as the other side (tension/open face) is still pulling. To operate both the compression push and the tension pull in unison to target.
Usually they operate seperately. And the pull has a slight counter in pull tothe opposite (lean) side. Then the compression Phase at closing starts; mainly pushing away from lean, but with some push formthe other closed face as well. Here (swing dutchy), the tension pulls, while the other face is closed, so there is no counter pull, jsut pure pull on lean to center. Likewise, the closed side of face pushing, does so without the usual countering push back, for the opposite face is open. So the pull operates without a pull back, the push, without a push back; so each are more empowered by that alone. Also, the push to center from lean, and the pull to center operate not seperately as a usual face/hinge would, but gang up on the lean in a unified effort. this compounds their actions, and their acting without counters to themselves too.
In climbing we can dutch/kerf the whole face, to pop/throw forth evenly for a snapcut on a horizontal, or applied to a small top, to hop over something. the push force is very pwoerful, from the closed kerf.
In the Swing Dutchy, we operate the L and the R side fo the face, as 2 seperate machines, not 1 generic one that pushes and/or pulls towards lean with some of it's force (rather than away); also making the forces work together, rather than sequentially handing the job off, each force(push/pull) acting independantly.
i think!...
The theory is to place Dutchman on lean/power/compression side. Let it close early and push to center face as the other side (tension/open face) is still pulling. To operate both the compression push and the tension pull in unison to target.
Usually they operate seperately. And the pull has a slight counter in pull tothe opposite (lean) side. Then the compression Phase at closing starts; mainly pushing away from lean, but with some push formthe other closed face as well. Here (swing dutchy), the tension pulls, while the other face is closed, so there is no counter pull, jsut pure pull on lean to center. Likewise, the closed side of face pushing, does so without the usual countering push back, for the opposite face is open. So the pull operates without a pull back, the push, without a push back; so each are more empowered by that alone. Also, the push to center from lean, and the pull to center operate not seperately as a usual face/hinge would, but gang up on the lean in a unified effort. this compounds their actions, and their acting without counters to themselves too.
In climbing we can dutch/kerf the whole face, to pop/throw forth evenly for a snapcut on a horizontal, or applied to a small top, to hop over something. the push force is very pwoerful, from the closed kerf.
In the Swing Dutchy, we operate the L and the R side fo the face, as 2 seperate machines, not 1 generic one that pushes and/or pulls towards lean with some of it's force (rather than away); also making the forces work together, rather than sequentially handing the job off, each force(push/pull) acting independantly.
i think!...
- Location
- Ontario, Canada
Ken;
Are you referring to the push and pull of the fibers alone along the hinge as opposed to the reactive forces of what the tree itself is undergoing?
As in compression pushing and tension pulling apart?
Are you referring to the push and pull of the fibers alone along the hinge as opposed to the reactive forces of what the tree itself is undergoing?
As in compression pushing and tension pulling apart?
TheTreeSpyder
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- Florida>>> USA
i think the only active force is the Center of Gravity of the tree. Compression and Tension in stump throughout life, and hinge in death; as only passive reactives to the Center of Gravity force.
i think the tree is undergoing the push and pull on hinge reacitons, offsetting what they can of the CG.
So, i guess i don't understand your question!
i think the tree is undergoing the push and pull on hinge reacitons, offsetting what they can of the CG.
So, i guess i don't understand your question!
TheTreeSpyder
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- Location
- Florida>>> USA
[ QUOTE ]
I don't see any push in a swing dutchman, it appears to be all gravitational pull to me.
I can see push with a step dutchman prompting the gravitational forces to add more force to turn the tree but that's it.
Tension takes place on the side of the dutchman and compression on the opposite side as the hinge begins to fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Center of Gravity is the total power force, and is gravity powered; the tension and compression forces, are just equal and opposite responders(to CG), and would not exist without the CG force.
The push comes from the closed kerf in the lean's corner. Any part of face that closes, gives push, this push releiveing some of the tension support; mostly affecting nearby tension releif. The far side still pulls, as this lean side pushes. Like pushing L. across on top part of rake handle; while pushing R on bottom part; more turn. The farther spread apart the 2 pushes, the more powerful the movement.
In addition to these forces, the control side/ opposite the lean, becomes logically the path of least resistance.
Old Drawing:
I don't see any push in a swing dutchman, it appears to be all gravitational pull to me.
I can see push with a step dutchman prompting the gravitational forces to add more force to turn the tree but that's it.
Tension takes place on the side of the dutchman and compression on the opposite side as the hinge begins to fail.
[/ QUOTE ]
The Center of Gravity is the total power force, and is gravity powered; the tension and compression forces, are just equal and opposite responders(to CG), and would not exist without the CG force.
The push comes from the closed kerf in the lean's corner. Any part of face that closes, gives push, this push releiveing some of the tension support; mostly affecting nearby tension releif. The far side still pulls, as this lean side pushes. Like pushing L. across on top part of rake handle; while pushing R on bottom part; more turn. The farther spread apart the 2 pushes, the more powerful the movement.
In addition to these forces, the control side/ opposite the lean, becomes logically the path of least resistance.
Old Drawing:
