Thought I'd share

[Cameron]

Thought I\'d share

On Sunday morning got a call from a previous client who had a large limb drop. She was rather upset because we pruned the tree over a year ago and she had asked my advice on the limb. You could see it had a little bit of an issue but nothing that I thought warranted taking it off. We did some weight reduction on it and even my climber inspected it and said it looked fine.

Looking back I should have recommended cabling it but I didn't because I knew the client didn't want to spend to much money on the tree. I should have atleast gave it as an option in case of a failure.

I was fortunate that the limb fell at 1:30 in the morning, and not when she was having a holiday party later that afternoon.

I told her there was no charge for the clean up of the debris. For one I did not want an irate customer, and I partially felt that I had failed my job as an arborist to inform her of her choices irregardless of her financial situation

I'm thankful that no one got hurt and nothing got damaged considering it was a rather large limb that would have certainly done bodily injury had it hit someone.

So that brings me to what would have happened if someone would have gotten hurt? That I didn't reccomend a cable or removal of the limb? That we pruned the tree over a year ago? I'm sure the lawyers would have had a field day with this one.

 

[Tom Dunlap]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Did you take pics of both ends of the break? Of the stub that was left on the the tree?

 

[Cameron]

Re: Thought I\'d share

I can Tomorrow, will post them.

 

[cory]

Re: Thought I\'d share

When you cleaned up the fallen limb did you give her an estimate for any possibly needed work on the tree to keep you in the clear in the future?

 

[fireaxe]

Re: Thought I\'d share

I would think, and hope, that all failures wouldn't be put on arborists to discover and mitigate all possible hazards. In the end, I am confident that arborists won't have anything to worry about. We make cars that go fast and they have managed not to get sued over it when someone wrecks from high speed (I think). But then again, contents hot.

Malpractice notwithstanding.

Whether something is malpractice depends on what the conditions were WHEN you looked at it and WHAT was the BMP of the time. There weren't any cracks present when you did the work, so thin and no cable. What a reasonable arborist would do.

Not a fan of thinning or reduction - support for it is limited. It seems more of a knee jerk reaction to the problem of an over-extended limb(this is OUR perspective, NOT the tree's.) In my searches for citations, cables are similarly supported. We have just begun to discover things that are not intuitive about trees, such as dampening. The understanding isn't 100%, so how could you KNOW how it is going to play out. Lot of complex mechanical physics involved and NOT all directly related to the condition of the tree.

Short story:
I had a neighborhood that was a pretty densly wooded urban forest, pretty solid canopy. Just about every 1/5 acre property had 5 mature forest trees. In the center of this block, there stood a HUGE oak with 2 co-dominant 30" stems branches nearly all the way to the ground. So owner X decides it would be great to crown raise the tree to about 70', probably wanted more light for grass. I'd bet, but didn't measure the live crown ration to be 25% post crown raising, down from 75%. Lasted about a year then split. One lead landed on a neighbors house flattening the living room to the slab and the other took out all the power lines, closing the street for a few days. It was a wicked thunderstorm that caused its demise. Or was it the elevating/raising? I mention this one because over the next year, I removed 23 uprooted trees in the vicinity. There were other firms working in the neighborhood as well. What caused all the failures? It would be a difficult case to make... The dominos started falling where? As far as I know, no one got sued.

Is it McDonalds that caused the heart attack of the 300lb man?

Don't do it for free. Makes you look guilty.

 

[islandarb]

Re: Thought I\'d share

I have to agree with Fireaxe, don't do the work for free Cameron ( declares a wrongdoing ) this work we do is not an exact science ( IMHO ). No way you could have foreseen the failing of the branch in this case. If it was obvious I assume you would have noticed it and advised appropriately. I am fortunate down here that we are not susceptible to these lawsuits from tree work done or advised. Most failure here occurs during storms and is deemed " Act Of God ". I too don't believe in thinning and reduction, deadwooding is fine. But we are requested often to raise canopies ( more light ) and remove unsightly shoots and rubbing limbs, as well as reducing long large lower limbs near structures. I am not for this but it constitutes a large amount of yearly revenue and does little harm to these hardy tropical trees, on the flip side I really don't think it's good practice. The trees survive the HO's are happy but I struggle with it. Back to you Cameron, Fireaxe is right this thing about liability is a grey area and I don't think you are responsible but I am not familiar with your rules. Hope this opens your eyes as we need to be very careful what information we give HO's as it could return to haunt us.

 

[guymayor]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Agree w/ not taking blame or working free. honest mistake at worse. Discounting, maybe.

fireaxe and swing, there is a TON of support for thinning and reduction to lessen risk--READ Harris, Shigo, Gilman, etc. Not to mention simple geometry and physics. What lack of support are you sensing: guilt-ridden opinions on web forums from low self-estemm, such as "we prune for people not the tree"?

Horsespit. If you had pruned more or cabled, you know it likely would not have failed, and that would have helped the tree. clients crying poor is no reason to leave out options. most people lie about that anyway. O and,,,Disclaimer!

Overextension is a tough risk factor--not really a defect. In ANSI and BMP it is recognized as a problem and the solutions are simple--reduce or support. Cable I put in Sunday was $50 materials, and done while pruning = low expense.

re liability, I would not want to be in the boots of the fool who overraised that split oak, the first domino. A consultant could add up all the standards that work broke, and turn em into a potent lawsuit.

the pics will tell a lot. Documentation + Disclamers = Defendability

 

[fireaxe]

Re: Thought I\'d share

All the reading I really have time to do is A300 and BMP cause they are short and pushed in front of me. I am aware of what they say.

There is going to be a conference on Wind and Trees this coming September, please go. I believe it is being held in Chicago. I have a feeling that they will be discussing more than dampening which only was described in 2006. I am pretty sure that fluid mechanics (aerodymanics) apply to the trees as well. I am counting the days on this conference for certain.

A quick thing that I think from doing this for a while. No tree is balanced - EVER! Which means that it must do something to hold itself up for what is going on or it would simply fall down.

Pretty sure I exampled this already. If you break a bone, the cast goes on for a short period. The bone gets better, the cast is removed. Atrophy usually results. Trees support themselves for what is going on and the force that they realize, just like us. Exercise makes individuals stronger. The cable is a support therefore the limb relies on the cable. Good. I don't need to make the wood cause I have help. All good as long as the cable is intact. When do we cut the cable when we are doing a tree removal? Why?

Not going to dispute anyone's work here. I have heard all 3 of the people you mentioned in person. Gilman has the most conviction and research on young trees.

Filling cavities went on for a long, long time. Painting wounds went on for a long time. I still see people practicing both of these. I still remember one of the first punch lists that I had to work on called for reducing mature poplar trees by 35%.

Information changes. New thoughts are looked at constantly.

 

[islandarb]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Hey Cameron can we see the pictures you promised and have some idea on what might have occurred, a picture tells a thousand words. Guy trees here in the Tropics are quite different than the ones up North. Our environment combined with a considerable lack of knowledge on the general population's side has always placed me in difficult situations as to what is best for the tree. I have practiced thinning and reduction basically following what I have learned from reading and practice, however I find that trees left alone with just dead wooding seem to have the best shapes and always look more healthy and natural. I am a very fastidious and stingy pruner. So when I am done the HO looks at me and invariably always says they want more off. I am usually not happy with the results but I feel my arms are tied. None of the trees I have worked on have failed so far ( the island is small ) and we do get our fair share of storms. I get to work on some of the biggest trees around here which I really like but money can cause HO's to want value in their eyes. I hope I was a little more clear, not really knocking thinning and reduction, but I do feel that left to take care of themselves trees do better. Maybe I am wrong and need to read a little more when I have time, got a 11 month old baby boy running rings around this 45 year old.

 

[ratherbclimbing]

Re: Thought I\'d share

I'm riding the fence on this one.. I agree with Guy but also know that when my Dad started doing tree work the rules, guidelines, and information was alot different than what we know today.

Everytime I read something I find there is a legitimate arguement against it. I do personally believe trees have survived and adapted to live alot longer than we can on their own and will continue to do so. We are always learning something new about these amazing living creatures that were once thought to be so simple.

I will continue to educate myself and hopefully one day there will be a definitve answer to these issues.

Are we sure this isn't sudden/summer limb drop? Or is it an obvious rip/split from an over extended limb?

The windy city is hosting a conference about wind, who woulda thunk it?

 

[guymayor]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Ah you guys are a trip; no time to read; we are talking about an hour! Gilman's book on pruning old trees is far more useful than his research on pruning young trees; I agree.

swing the caribbean trees are not so different; delonix jacaranda tamarindus etc. Ideally they don't need green removed, but ideal is seldom the case.

Clients press for more, we compromise, life goes on. That compromise happens ahead of time (in much less time) when specs are written as work order. 1" cuts in outer 1/3 of crown, <20% off, or whatever fits the job.

Yes the standards have changed, but not that radically. They have always said: Objective SHALL be established, specs SHALL be communicated. Makes life easy.
and they will change more; ride the wave or wipe out!

The simplicity of cabling needs to be more apparent too! 3/16 cable holds >600 lbs, in up to 8" wood--how hard is it to drill 2 holes w a 1/4" bit, cut cable to size, thread through, tauten, and screw on clamps. Done!

 

[islandarb]

Re: Thought I\'d share

I like you Guy, you are a smart dude and I really listen when you speak. I forgot you work in the southern states inclusive of Florida so you are familiar with our trees, my bad. So much butchering down here and then a few of us have to try our best with what's thrown at us, I have been fortunate to have customers that will listen and get educated about trees but I am constantly learning too. I consider myself teachable . I will ride the wave, wipe outs ain't no fun. Keep up the good posts.

 

[guymayor]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Gee, that's personal...but thanks! I put into port in Barbados but never climbed there. lived in key west ~7 years though; great trees, until they are butchered, then a challenge to restore for sure.

Cameron re working free out of guilt--I've done that a lot over the years, way too much, so not judging you on that. so what does that broken part look like?

 

[Paul Biester]

Re: Thought I\'d share

reading is great ! it and its research informs our process!! Remember ShiGo?! Touch trees!!! What have you seen and felt over the coures of your careers. After years of doing this stuff and revisting properties after your work.....what do YOU THINK? SEE? etc...just food for thought!
ihave seen limbs break because they are "overmature".I have seen some species respond really well do some well executed pruning . I have noticed that MOST of the post storm calls we get are NOT on properties that recieve regular maintenance intervals...

 

[fireaxe]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Anecdotal evidence per Wikipedia:

"The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Some anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence because its nature prevents it from being investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily representative of a "typical" experience; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is."



Same footnote for source:

"Scientific evidence has no universally accepted definition but generally refers to evidence which serves to either support or counter a scientific theory or hypothesis. Such evidence is generally expected to be empirical and properly documented in accordance with scientific method such as is applicable to the particular field of inquiry. Standards for evidence may vary according to whether the field of inquiry is among the natural sciences or social sciences (see qualitative research and intersubjectivity). Evidence may involve understanding all steps of a process, or one or a few observations, or observation and statistical analysis of many samples without necessarily understanding the mechanism."

Jerry Mcguire: "Show me the money"

It is easy, practical and legally smart to utilize a standard or BMP to conduct our affairs. I would advise everyone do just that.

One thing that I probably focus on too much is what is the basis? Too frequently, a conflict of interest comes into the picture. Much of ANSI is designed to cover our butts. The disclaimers, O my, the disclaimers.

I truly believe that we really know little in the way of facts. Understand that a review, while sometimes exhaustive, are perspective driven. One would leave out or not look for facts that do not support the perspective. Bias always enters into this type of endeavor.

I question because some of the anecdotal evidence that I have gathered doesn't line up with what we practicing.

All of the men that have been mentioned are great men with great thoughts and passion for their field.

Since we are mentioning great men with passion, add Dr. Tom Smiley to the mix. Read his work. Any potential conflict of interest there?

This work of ours is definitly an art and a science. One can't argue art, but one can surely argue science and that should be expected and welcomed .

 

[islandarb]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Cameron where are the promised pictures, you are probably busy but I would like to see what really transpired as I am now delving deep into this thread. I still agree with Fireaxe as the most splendid Bearded Fig Trees and Mahogany Trees on the island which have survived many a hurricane and storm are just so majestic and get little or no work done on them. They seem so strong and well shaped, just an observation. They tend to shed there weaker branches nicely as they grow and age ( usually the lower shaded out ones). There are many variables that cause failures to trees in the urban environment. These variables can facilitate decline and effect a tree's natural growth and compromise it's branch strength, but I wont get into that here. It is just an opinion from observation and working in the trees around here.

 

[Cameron]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Sorry for the delay guys. Here are the photos. You can see that there was a small limb that had tore out next to the other limb. But I did not think that the second limb that fell was compromised at that time.

 

[Cameron]

Re: Thought I\'d share

I do agree I probably shouldn't have done the job for free. I think it all depends on the kind of client you happen to be dealing with. I knew in her mind she thought I was at fought, so I'm not gonna sit there and argue the fact that had I removed that limb at the time it would have been an extra $350 to take it off. Not included in what we had agreed on what we were pruning else where at the time.

She didn't even offer anything after we cleaned up the fallen limb, and I wouldn't have expected her too. What can I say, we all have those clients that are excellent to deal with and others that can be a real PITA!

 

[guymayor]

Re: Thought I\'d share

Dark stain on the trunks shot but not seen on branch shot. ?

twisted grain looks like a corkscrew. normal ?

Gee, swing, thanks! not that smart at all; it's all talk, a lot of it other people's ideas. Plus knowing scientific names doesn't mean i know science.. I put into port in Barbados but never climbed there. lived in key west ~7 years though; great trees, until they are butchered, then a challenge to restore for sure. but like any tree it's usually possible.

Cameron re working free out of guilt--I've done that a lot over the years, way too much, so not judging you on that.

 

[islandarb]

Re: Thought I\'d share

True Guy restoring the butchered trees are a challenge and can take some time although with a 12 month growing season you can see the fruits of your labor fairly fast, although topped trees will take considerably longer and occasionally they can't be saved. Knowledge gained from reading books even though it's not your ideas is still knowledge gained and can surely be passed along.

Cameron it would have been nice to see the whole branch and a larger shot of it's attachment point, that wood seems healthy to me, maybe it's shape caused the twisting as it released from the attachment point when it failed. That is just an observation from the two photos. I by all means am no expert. Also we all have those clients Cameron, you are by no means alone but the others make up for it tenfold. It's the way of the world.