They bid tree work like they don't need money

Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

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I feel ya about the hacks, but they will all fade. Grow low and slow, mang...the trees best suited to their landscapes are those that have to fight for water and nutrients, plunge roots deep into the soil and establish a strong base. Excessive irrigation can lead to premature failure.

Orrrr at least thats what I'm told...

Good luck, man.

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Haha, I had to think about that for a minute.

I think a lot of what the value of running a tree service like any kind of work is has to do with how much the local folks are willing to do the work for. Try to run a tree service in Panama, Mexico, or Columbia, and ask for what the US tree services ask for payment. You'll lose every bid. I mean if there is any money in trees down there, then they just ask for enough to get by on because nobody expects more, and nobody expect to pay them more. Nobody even expects to ever be able to pay more for tree services. Yet you will find that there are tree crews down all the same.

I'm from the world where you keep your shops on the streets painted up and sharp. Where you get that paint on your house redone when it looks bad, and you wash your cars and trucks when they are dirty. You work to buy your house, and pay for college three times over for the kids. You retire with residual income because you worked mighty hard where you made enough to save enough to invest and retire.

In places like Panama, Mexico, and Columbia they don't even fathom such "glorious" things for working. Those good things only come as a result of being crooks. Their expectations for pay are so low, it will make most fellas in our tree service industry sick to their stomachs.

Now take these guys from down there, and put them in charge of the tree services around where you live, and fill in the payroll positions with them too. You know what the result is going to be. The result is bye bye glorious American things. That's because they came in droves, and they are now the new local boys for hire everywhere, and they just don't care about those glorious things for running tree services. They expect much less, and the tree owners around here look for them especially around here. Everybody has a landscaper around here because these guys don't expect anything for pay; just enough to get by on, so everybody has a landscaper and a tree guy too. Property owners just eat these guys up like cheap manufacturing deals in China. With no remorse either.

Well that is just what the locals make of tree service industry around here, but I wish these guys would stop looking at it so eyed. Running a tree service is a serious thing that deserves serious money. They won't be changing in my lifetime though. Maybe they never will.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Two things, every industry has a range of rates from the cheap to the expensive. (Lawyers for eg., $200-1000/hr). Each is faced with the same set of problems, id THEIR client, market to them, close the deal and know who isn't their client.

"A simple 3:1 rule has worked well for checking that pipeline gen and sales process management are moving in the right direction: 3 suspects to 1 prospect,
3 prospects to 1 qualified opportunity, 3 qualified opportunities to 1 win"

That is a quote from a business to business marketing blog.

So why do we expect a higher than average closing rate? Why do we think that we have unfair competition due to low bidders? Why do we feel we're above actively marketing and selling our services(vs. picking up the phone and going on the estimate)?

As I see it, the tree service industry was in growth mode where demand was far in excess of supply. People were buying you just had to be there to reap the benefits. We're in a maturing business that supply is balanced and in some cases outstripping demand. This is were we now need to become better business people. How many of us take business courses or sales courses?

As for the labor pool, they come because there is an unfulfilled need for labor. That it is cheap labor is only a function of what most companies offer as a wage for their semi or unskilled labor. Where is the homegrown labor that is willing to work for these wages? As the economy slowed so did the movement of cheap labor across the borders. Once again there are those that use the low cost business model to operate understanding that there is a market for that kind of product.

When I was managing a computer sales dept in an electronics retail big box I wondered why people would come to us to pay more for their stuff. Our market study showed it was firstly because of our clean well organized stores and merchandising. We were not the cheapest but certainly not the most expensive(we sold home theaters that topped out at $10K compare that to a competitor that sold them up to $50K and another that only sold from $50K and up). Imagine people willingly paying more for us to clean up and look nice.... hmmmmm

End of the day you need to decide where in the spectrum you fit, who that client is, how big is that market, what you need to do to reach them and why they will buy your service at your price. Then spend your time chasing them instead of estimating to the low end of your market.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

Dick Proudfoot said many times that, in Portland anyway:

All it takes to do treework is a pickup, chainsaw and a dog!

After spending time talking with friends in many different professions I've found that 'our' issues are common across the board. Supply and demand...educated consumers...marketing...common business issues all need to be considered.

When I wanted to set myself apart from the rest of the crowd I would suggest that my customer google me and my company as well as go to 'Trees Are Good' and the local land-grant university to find out how much of what I'm saying matches accepted practices.

Sales and marketing can raise you above any sort of 'competition'.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

As a relatively new business owner, I find bidding is the hardest part of the job. I had a lady call me last week saying that my 900$ bid to prune some maples was undercut by some fool at 75$!!! He said he could do the same work from the ground with a pruner.

Then, this week, a guy calls me and starts to ask me how much I charge to remove some branches on a tree, he said he thinks he got had by a local tree company. They pruned maybe 6-8 large branches off a willow (didn't make any nice cuts either) and just left everything there. 1000$ for 1,5 hours of work, no cleanup. If I can make 800-1000$ for a two-man crew, small chipper, dump truck and mini in a day I'm happy around here.

These to jobs are in the same market, just a few miles apart. I find it hard to bid on work when you have these two extremes.
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

the hacks will always underbid us . they will also not stand behind there work . where i live this has gotten crazy this year . anybody with a pickup truck is now a treeguy .
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Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

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where i live this has gotten crazy this year . anybody with a pickup truck is now a treeguy .
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I have two neighbors that do «tree work». My truck is the «newest» (2001) and Im the only one that has any sort of writting on it. I almost went out today to put informative flyers on their trucks, but I dont really feel like getting my tires slashed!!!
 
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

mostly sewickley , beaver county , cranberry , wexford , fox chapel , areas . sometimes we do travel for big land and lot clearing jobs .
 
goodpredator said:
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

i think there have been a lot of good points made, and my sympathies go to all who struggle in this business.

i think it's important to remember there are many people in this world who come from very poor backgrounds either from the usa or other countries. some who don't even feel they will ever be able to earn enough to start a family and who work to survive. others who already have a family in a country where a dollar can be stretched a long way. many who are a month away from homelessness.

i share your frustrations and they are real. i believe the true root of the frustration is with the poverty that exists that forces people to do seemingly non-sensical things (ex. ultra-low bids). but i would bet good money that A profit is being made, and whatever profit that is, it's enough for that person on that day.

the stories behind the people that choose to do this work fascinate me. the choices, the will power, the smart, the insane, the good, the bad, the indifferent, the strength of body and mind.

i await the time when we, the brothers and sisters of the world, figure out that the world was made for us all equally, and we celebrate and support those who we respect and appreciate and not those who charge us the least.
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Wow that was a great response! Love your attitude and outlook brother! :)
 
Any industry where there is general labor involved, this is a common issue

The roofing industry for example.
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also, Using too much labor at first and not buying equipment is a huge mistake. for example: 10k to a ground helper to drag debris for one yr, who doesnt end up sticking around, could have been 10k on a swinger that will move debris for you , for years

My problem was always too many calls coming in to get all the jobs anyway, so I just cherry pick the best jobs for me
 
If you don't want to compete with hacks. You need a lot of years into creating a customer base that will NOT shop around.
Customers that call you and only you.
That is A LOT of years invested to do this and you have to get rid of all the customers that are a pain in the ass.

I'm so snobby now, I consider charging them an added fee if they tell me that they got another quote while I'm giving them a price.
 
BBBTree said:
They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

I can't believe how nobody around this area knows how to bid to profit. It's extremely nauseating. Wouldn't you think a business owner would only operate a tree service in order to own a house, put kids through college, and just keep the business open? Not this group of hacks around here. I'm not sure if this crowd of hacks service owners even comprehends more than just keeping rent paid and hot food on the table. They DO NOT know how to bid or profit.

With everything considered, I need to do $350 a day 208 days a year plus dump costs, and I figure that $350 on top of that ought to be alright for using my company's assets and skills. That is bare bones tree service costs, and I don't own a boom. So we're looking at $800 a day on average for basic jobs. I would think this would be competitive. Wouldn't anyone else, but I can't believe it though! I can't get that price. Customers give the jobs to other guys coming in lower.

I've owned a small tree service for some time now. In my start up stage I ran it based on working to hard for competitive prices. I changed that.

The tree service veterans have always said that when you run a price competitive tree service, you run around a whole lot and do a whole lot of hard work for a whole lot of nothing. Then at the end of the year, you go out of business like the rest of the services that are based on competitive pricing. Well, this is only too true, and I now do a lot of explaining to customers about quality tree service over cheap services. Some understand that, many do not. I think the business owners understand that more than anyone else.

Anyway, I'm going to start subcontract climbing. I need to get out of my own company for a while. Being sour about hacks and cheap customers is finally taking its toll on me. I love tree work, and subcontracting should be okay for a while.
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We should get all of the tree companies in the world together and tell everyone to add 500 on the total. Underbidding happens every where do to unlicensed and uninsured immigrants. The rebellion starts now. That’s the only way we are going to keep this business alive. Eventually the margins are going to be down a lot. Like I said just everyone add 500$
 
If we all just add $500, the hacks that pay their employees cash and don't pay into workman's comp/don't have insurance just make an extra $500. Nice thought though. Many many years ago, the 3 concrete suppliers in our area got in trouble for setting and maintaining a price per yard that was quite good for their businesses...they got caught...survived, but now there are 3 times as many suppliers around...go figure.
 
craneguy1 said:
If we all just add $500, the hacks that pay their employees cash and don't pay into workman's comp/don't have insurance just make an extra $500. Nice thought though. Many many years ago, the 3 concrete suppliers in our area got in trouble for setting and maintaining a price per yard that was quite good for their businesses...they got caught...survived, but now there are 3 times as many suppliers around...go figure.
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It does also have a lot to do with getting your name out there and promoting your business. People can’t expect everyone to just call a random business. Establishing a good service and great customer service is the other half of the battle
 
You're absolutely right Baja Mike.
Times were definitely tougher when this thread was started.
Wonder how business is for @BBBTree these days.
 
matdand said:
Re: They bid tree work like they don\'t need money

As a relatively new business owner, I find bidding is the hardest part of the job. I had a lady call me last week saying that my 900$ bid to prune some maples was undercut by some fool at 75$!!! He said he could do the same work from the ground with a pruner.

Then, this week, a guy calls me and starts to ask me how much I charge to remove some branches on a tree, he said he thinks he got had by a local tree company. They pruned maybe 6-8 large branches off a willow (didn't make any nice cuts either) and just left everything there. 1000$ for 1,5 hours of work, no cleanup. If I can make 800-1000$ for a two-man crew, small chipper, dump truck and mini in a day I'm happy around here.

These to jobs are in the same market, just a few miles apart. I find it hard to bid on work when you have these two extremes.
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What state do you live in? And what city? So I can get an idea of what’s the minimum wage there and what’s the economy like? If you don’t mind sharing your info.
 
Fatguyclimber said:
We should get all of the tree companies in the world together and tell everyone to add 500 on the total. Underbidding happens every where do to unlicensed and uninsured immigrants. The rebellion starts now. That’s the only way we are going to keep this business alive. Eventually the margins are going to be down a lot. Like I said just everyone add 500$
Click to expand...

I'm only going to add $400., so I gets all the work.

Paco Hernandez
 
A new company here is advertising that they will beat any quote by 10 percent. I think it is very weasley. Should we all all adopt that marketing scam we would be doing the work for nothing.

I don't ever ask what my competitors quote.
 
That's some dirty cutthroat bullshit there.

What's stopping people from just lying to him about their quotes? Lol that's potentially exploitable ya know. Then if he don't follow, he's just asking for bad reviews.

Now I don't condone such acts, but people have gotten their shops and/or equipment torched before for stuff like that.
 
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