treevet
Branched out member
- Location
- Cincinnati, Ohio
Suckers - What do you tell the client?
- Thread starter fireaxe
- Start date
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
two other words, cut and cut, to get it under an mb. paininthearse. Thanks anyway for the offer; it's there.
On the paper... Phototropism? Could equally be thigmotropism? Wind direction? I can't tell where the sun comes up by looking nor which direction the predominant wind comes from plus I know nothing about eucalyptus spp. My bad to be sure.
In most of the highly suckered or water sprouts or adventitious growth situations - there is one commonality. Something changed. The rapid growing tissue (note the rate is typically 4-600% of normal growth rate)is trying to fix something.
I was discussing this with a professor at I can't remember where and was trying to obtain some info on the why's. In the end what we came to is that a tree is a big ole wick. Dry tissue will be dead tissue. My thought is that the sprouts are put on as a water draw assist and quick.
Using an earlier example: The forest is cleared. At the edge of the forest, the air movement, temperature change and sun exposure all cause a change in hydraulic potential for the area. A tree that has a stable environment, no sun exposure and a fairly consistent temperature will set up its structure to move the water up to the leaves in its current conditions. Then the change. To help move the water, the tree needs some form of transpiration help. In come the water sprouts. Secondarily, the new exposure creates an instability because the new air movement will cause greater force to be applied to the stem. The sprouts may be needed for force dampening as well. My thought is that the water movement is the more critical issue. This assumes that the sprouting tree limbs aren't directly caused by some form of damage.
This thought arises from firefighting. If you need to flow more water, you get a bigger hose. It seems to flow well as an explanation.
Just a thought perspective.
As far as them being a waste of energy, biologically this would be a rarity. In general, nature is pretty darn conservative with its energy resources.
In most of the highly suckered or water sprouts or adventitious growth situations - there is one commonality. Something changed. The rapid growing tissue (note the rate is typically 4-600% of normal growth rate)is trying to fix something.
I was discussing this with a professor at I can't remember where and was trying to obtain some info on the why's. In the end what we came to is that a tree is a big ole wick. Dry tissue will be dead tissue. My thought is that the sprouts are put on as a water draw assist and quick.
Using an earlier example: The forest is cleared. At the edge of the forest, the air movement, temperature change and sun exposure all cause a change in hydraulic potential for the area. A tree that has a stable environment, no sun exposure and a fairly consistent temperature will set up its structure to move the water up to the leaves in its current conditions. Then the change. To help move the water, the tree needs some form of transpiration help. In come the water sprouts. Secondarily, the new exposure creates an instability because the new air movement will cause greater force to be applied to the stem. The sprouts may be needed for force dampening as well. My thought is that the water movement is the more critical issue. This assumes that the sprouting tree limbs aren't directly caused by some form of damage.
This thought arises from firefighting. If you need to flow more water, you get a bigger hose. It seems to flow well as an explanation.
Just a thought perspective.
As far as them being a waste of energy, biologically this would be a rarity. In general, nature is pretty darn conservative with its energy resources.
treevet
Branched out member
- Location
- Cincinnati, Ohio
Some trees tend to sprout (I think sucker is a colloquialism/slang) more than others and yes sprouts in a densely shaded canopy are superfluous (and predominantly energy consuming) in my opinion and expendable (prune able)judiciously.
Also think I am going to go with the most prolific arboricultural researcher in the history of man, Alex Shigo and forego Guy's and Blinky's (not researchers I do not think) opinion in regards to the fact that sprouts are less well attached than an evolved branch when making pruning decisions, although they do become better attached over the years. There are many pictures of dissected trees and text to substantiate this
I think also on vertical sprouts one can by observation see which ones are possessing of included bark or will mature into having included bark causing cracks and other maladies and base a pruning decision in that instance.
Being a discerning pruner and not falling into dogma is the best direction to go along with whenever you have questions best going straight to a source of scientific research and not listen to straight conjecture with nothing behind it (often found on forums). Books are very inexpensive in the long run.
Also think I am going to go with the most prolific arboricultural researcher in the history of man, Alex Shigo and forego Guy's and Blinky's (not researchers I do not think) opinion in regards to the fact that sprouts are less well attached than an evolved branch when making pruning decisions, although they do become better attached over the years. There are many pictures of dissected trees and text to substantiate this
I think also on vertical sprouts one can by observation see which ones are possessing of included bark or will mature into having included bark causing cracks and other maladies and base a pruning decision in that instance.
Being a discerning pruner and not falling into dogma is the best direction to go along with whenever you have questions best going straight to a source of scientific research and not listen to straight conjecture with nothing behind it (often found on forums). Books are very inexpensive in the long run.
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
When I'm selling treecare I find that this issue is a place where I can get more jobs than any other concern. New customers are generally talking with 2-5 other sales reps. Typically the customer says 'I want______' and the rep says it will cost '________'. That might not be the best service. It took a while to learn how to come up with a sales talk that wouldn't get the instant 'glassy-eyed' look and loose a sale. 'Food factory' is a simple way for most people to understand what's going on. I took that a step further by telling customers that if too many leaves/factories were removed the tree would struggle and more than likely rebuild the factories. Kind of like eating soup with a fork. We wouldn't die but we sure would struggle to live.
The customers that want to understand what is going on are the ones that are worth having.
I am just one really, really confused tree guy. The best management practices change - that is why they are best management practices. The definitions and the scientific backing are weak. After talking with a client that wants to understand, they usually look at me and say something like "I have had 4 different tree guys out here and now have 4 different answers."
If I went to 4 physicians and got 4 answers as to my health condition, I would feel screwed.
It is truly good that I have a pretty good bedside manor or my conservative approach to tree care would put me out of business. I get to go back to many, many customers and see the results over time. I believe that "trees have been trees for millions of years and they pretty much know what to do." and state that to most customers.
I am just one really, really confused tree guy. The best management practices change - that is why they are best management practices. The definitions and the scientific backing are weak. After talking with a client that wants to understand, they usually look at me and say something like "I have had 4 different tree guys out here and now have 4 different answers."
If I went to 4 physicians and got 4 answers as to my health condition, I would feel screwed.
It is truly good that I have a pretty good bedside manor or my conservative approach to tree care would put me out of business. I get to go back to many, many customers and see the results over time. I believe that "trees have been trees for millions of years and they pretty much know what to do." and state that to most customers.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
"...sprouts are less well attached than an evolved branch when making pruning decisions, although they do become better attached over the years. There are many pictures of dissected trees and text to substantiate this...
I think also on vertical sprouts one can by observation see which ones are possessing of included bark or will mature into having included bark causing cracks and other maladies and base a pruning decision in that instance... Books are very inexpensive in the long run..."
+3, you got it, Dave!
"On the paper... Phototropism? Could equally be thigmotropism?"
Well not really. As noted the sprouts were in response to storm damage (2nd pic), and i thought the pic showed the growing sprouts were on the exposed side of the tree--see the sun angle?--, but then having taken it, i may be seeing things in the pic that i only saw while in the tree.
The caption does say the dying sprouts are "interior".
" ... plus I know nothing about eucalyptus spp."
Yes you do--they are shade-intolerant trees, like many here.
BobW asked about bank balances and branches--here's another. no income from the sun = account closed. Oversimplification is not good, but neither is overcomplexification. Plus, it's harder to say!
I think also on vertical sprouts one can by observation see which ones are possessing of included bark or will mature into having included bark causing cracks and other maladies and base a pruning decision in that instance... Books are very inexpensive in the long run..."
+3, you got it, Dave!
"On the paper... Phototropism? Could equally be thigmotropism?"
Well not really. As noted the sprouts were in response to storm damage (2nd pic), and i thought the pic showed the growing sprouts were on the exposed side of the tree--see the sun angle?--, but then having taken it, i may be seeing things in the pic that i only saw while in the tree.
The caption does say the dying sprouts are "interior".
" ... plus I know nothing about eucalyptus spp."
Yes you do--they are shade-intolerant trees, like many here.
BobW asked about bank balances and branches--here's another. no income from the sun = account closed. Oversimplification is not good, but neither is overcomplexification. Plus, it's harder to say!
- Location
- Retired in Minneapolis
I hear you, Fireaxe!
When faced with that challenge from a client I direct them to 'Trees are good', wiki or some other outside verification. If what they are hearing from the four of us doesn't match up with what they find, then call me back. I know that my explanation will be close to what they find...if they are good consumers or want to learn.
If I want confirmation on medical issues I start at the Mayo Clinic and Johns-Hopkins webpages. For me, both of these are good places to start my education.
When faced with that challenge from a client I direct them to 'Trees are good', wiki or some other outside verification. If what they are hearing from the four of us doesn't match up with what they find, then call me back. I know that my explanation will be close to what they find...if they are good consumers or want to learn.
If I want confirmation on medical issues I start at the Mayo Clinic and Johns-Hopkins webpages. For me, both of these are good places to start my education.
treebing
Been here much more than a while
- Location
- Detroit, Mi.
There are many ash trees in detroit where the sucker growth, after 6 years of EAB has gown into a replacement tree. Hiding the dead older limbs completely. These trees in my opinion are survivors of the plague and are still hustling and doing their thing.
One tree guy I know insists on calling them "providers" and will just correct the customer and say "oh, those are not suckers, they are called providers."
This explanation also makes sense to customers. on a hot day the edge of the canopy shuts down to avoid water loss, the interior canopy is shaded and is still able to perform photosynthesis. The tree has it all figured out.
Re mediating hacked trees is something else and is a tricky line.
One tree guy I know insists on calling them "providers" and will just correct the customer and say "oh, those are not suckers, they are called providers."
This explanation also makes sense to customers. on a hot day the edge of the canopy shuts down to avoid water loss, the interior canopy is shaded and is still able to perform photosynthesis. The tree has it all figured out.
Re mediating hacked trees is something else and is a tricky line.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
We humans are constantly trying to categorize and assign value to phenomena like diseases, climate change... sprouts, as though they have one purpose and it has to be something we can do something about.
Nature doesn't see things the same way. Nature is integral, not discrete. Sprouts can have more than one purpose, they can serve different purposes in different phases of growth, they can good or they can be not so good (so far as people are concerned) depending on external factors.
Fast growth freaks us out because cancer tends to be fast growing, things that grow fast tend to be more susceptible to external forces... we figure they are weaker because they grew fast.
I'm speaking generally here because we generally know what sprouts do, they draw water... we even think we know why but I'll wager we don't even know half the story.
As for Shigo and epicormics, that sounds out of context. Shigo was perfectly aware that with each year of growth an epicormic shoot becomes more strongly attached. Nobody said they were AS strong as normal branches.
One of the smartest things I've said to my customers when they asked about something like that is, "I don't know", but the current thinking is, yadayadayada.". Shigo didn't KNOW, Guy and Bob don't KNOW and I don't KNOW. But We all know that knowledge is both culmulative and subtractive. Sometimes a previous theory with tons of scientific support is disproven... or more likely, altered to fit the new data.
The idea that Shigo and ONLY Shigo knows the truth about tree biology is stupid. The idea that ONLY research produces viable theories, is STUPID. Most new theories come from observation, not research. Research is how you SUPPORT the theory, not how you create it.
Nature doesn't see things the same way. Nature is integral, not discrete. Sprouts can have more than one purpose, they can serve different purposes in different phases of growth, they can good or they can be not so good (so far as people are concerned) depending on external factors.
Fast growth freaks us out because cancer tends to be fast growing, things that grow fast tend to be more susceptible to external forces... we figure they are weaker because they grew fast.
I'm speaking generally here because we generally know what sprouts do, they draw water... we even think we know why but I'll wager we don't even know half the story.
As for Shigo and epicormics, that sounds out of context. Shigo was perfectly aware that with each year of growth an epicormic shoot becomes more strongly attached. Nobody said they were AS strong as normal branches.
One of the smartest things I've said to my customers when they asked about something like that is, "I don't know", but the current thinking is, yadayadayada.". Shigo didn't KNOW, Guy and Bob don't KNOW and I don't KNOW. But We all know that knowledge is both culmulative and subtractive. Sometimes a previous theory with tons of scientific support is disproven... or more likely, altered to fit the new data.
The idea that Shigo and ONLY Shigo knows the truth about tree biology is stupid. The idea that ONLY research produces viable theories, is STUPID. Most new theories come from observation, not research. Research is how you SUPPORT the theory, not how you create it.
treevet
Branched out member
- Location
- Cincinnati, Ohio
That is one of the more stupid posts I have encountered in a while. Sure a "Blinkey" has his opinion based on observation...but I likely will cast my lot with a "Shigo", PhD, Father of Modern Arboriculture, Former US Forest Service Chief Scientist (Blinky a scientist?), over 270 peer reviewed publications, dissected over 15000 trees longitudinally by hand with a chainsaw.
Just the same... you go Blinky! lol
gotta get to work
Just the same... you go Blinky! lol
gotta get to work
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Dude, I'm not in competition with Shigo. He's the Father of modern aboriculture and a gift to us all. Did you finish 5th grade? That's when they teach the scientific method.
Science doesn't stand still and Shigo would be the FIRST to tell you that were he here right now. Research is always ongoing. You can only support or disprove a theory, never prove it. Theories are altered all the time to match NEW observations.
Edited: I took out the nastiness because it was uncalled for.
Science doesn't stand still and Shigo would be the FIRST to tell you that were he here right now. Research is always ongoing. You can only support or disprove a theory, never prove it. Theories are altered all the time to match NEW observations.
Edited: I took out the nastiness because it was uncalled for.
Frax
Participating member
Great discussion.
I've never been satisfied with parroting from books. Great minds and solid research form the basis of my analysis or explanation for each case I see, or each request I'm dealt with. Then I try and puzzle it out.
If a client wants more pruning done than I think is warranted, I explain about the leaves pretty much like most of you guys have already done here. That wins many hearts, because in my experience, most homeowners think pruning is 'rejuvenative'.
I always look at the last few years of growth as a guide too. If the growth is mostly suckering, the tree is likely in decline, at least here, on the species I see.
Some small trees, especially crab apples sucker like mad and make a criss-crossing mess all through the interior. These trees seem to have lots of energy and it puzzles me why they sucker so randomly. They may be responding to a stress that I don't see yet. OR...I consider that Malus has been in cultivation for thousands of years and has been specifially bred to accept a high degree of pruning. I'm very willing to clean these out to a substantial degree to make the branching structure more even and to remove suckers that will eventually create a crossing mess of limbs. I don't even worry about the weak attachment issue because a crab apple can never be a hazard tree. And, yes...the goal is mostly aesthetic. But in garens, aesthetics matter for small ornamentals.
Each case is new for me, but I recognize patterns based on species and cultural situation. I judge accordingly. I might judge wrong, but I still try and read the tree in each case.
And I don't have books published and a degree in biology either.
I've never been satisfied with parroting from books. Great minds and solid research form the basis of my analysis or explanation for each case I see, or each request I'm dealt with. Then I try and puzzle it out.
If a client wants more pruning done than I think is warranted, I explain about the leaves pretty much like most of you guys have already done here. That wins many hearts, because in my experience, most homeowners think pruning is 'rejuvenative'.
I always look at the last few years of growth as a guide too. If the growth is mostly suckering, the tree is likely in decline, at least here, on the species I see.
Some small trees, especially crab apples sucker like mad and make a criss-crossing mess all through the interior. These trees seem to have lots of energy and it puzzles me why they sucker so randomly. They may be responding to a stress that I don't see yet. OR...I consider that Malus has been in cultivation for thousands of years and has been specifially bred to accept a high degree of pruning. I'm very willing to clean these out to a substantial degree to make the branching structure more even and to remove suckers that will eventually create a crossing mess of limbs. I don't even worry about the weak attachment issue because a crab apple can never be a hazard tree. And, yes...the goal is mostly aesthetic. But in garens, aesthetics matter for small ornamentals.
Each case is new for me, but I recognize patterns based on species and cultural situation. I judge accordingly. I might judge wrong, but I still try and read the tree in each case.
And I don't have books published and a degree in biology either.
boreality
New member
- Location
- boreal forest
If they have been declared an eyesore the best way to control them is to pick away at them over a number of years, you know "tree time". Take the biggest ones and leave the rest so it doesn't stimulate the production of more hormones and the multiplication of sprouts.
We humans are constantly trying to categorize and assign value to phenomena like diseases, climate change... sprouts, as though they have one purpose and it has to be something we can do something about.
We have convinced ourselves in a zillion areas that there single causes and explanations for everything we can encounter. We compound that ignorance by thinking that we actually know for ourselves or have someone provide the answer for us. A customer asking four arborists is innocently on that journey.
----------------------
Nature doesn't see things the same way. Nature is integral, not discrete. Sprouts can have more than one purpose, they can serve different purposes in different phases of growth, they can good or they can be not so good (so far as people are concerned) depending on external factors.
I like the use of the word integral here, although there are some very precise other definitions. To me, nature is multiple in its creations, not singular. And I don't mean just species, but again the amazing wealth of routine successes fortified by continual tweakings.
If I may offer another label; we're really talking in this thread about self-similarity. A watersprout is the replication, or a reiteration, of the tree. Different age, different scale, different orientation, but the same structure, the same rules, the same intended successes.
What else is different; our selected, insistent choice of purpose. Here we say what a waterspout is and why. What it does and doesn't. Whether it is good or bad. Whether we've uncovered nature’s mistake.
Sorry, I have to comment on our being rather presumptuous. There’s 200 million years of of practical wood working experience here--compared to perhaps a few thousand in discovering we have a brain. (For those leaping for their keyboards, I’m not saying we don’t know anything; I’m just saying, we don’t know everything.)
-------------------
Fast growth freaks us out because cancer tends to be fast growing, things that grow fast tend to be more susceptible to external forces... we figure they are weaker because they grew fast.
I don’t think it’s that specific; seems to me like accumulated biases, you know, the stuff we pay for in schools.
-----------------------
I'm speaking generally here because we generally know what sprouts do, they draw water... we even think we know why but I'll wager we don't even know half the story.
As for Shigo and epicormics, that sounds out of context. Shigo was perfectly aware that with each year of growth an epicormic shoot becomes more strongly attached. Nobody said they were AS strong as normal branches.
One of the smartest things I've said to my customers when they asked about something like that is, "I don't know", but the current thinking is, yadayadayada.". Shigo didn't KNOW, Guy and Bob don't KNOW and I don't KNOW. But We all know that knowledge is both culmulative and subtractive. Sometimes a previous theory with tons of scientific support is disproven... or more likely, altered to fit the new data.
--------------------------
What I dearly loved and respected about Alex, was hearing him in my first class answering a fellow student’s question by saying, I don’t know. I was staggered--here’s the first person I’d seen behind a podium with the balls to say, I don’t know. Remarkable.
--------------------------
(For the reader, these closing comments are reiterations--replication, just like a watersprout
The idea that Shigo and ONLY Shigo knows the truth about tree biology is stupid. The idea that ONLY research produces viable theories, is STUPID. Most new theories come from observation, not research. Research is how you SUPPORT the theory, not how you create it.
The fear that I think I see, is feeling our own credibility is undermined if we say, we do’t know. As one very well practiced in ignorance, being told many times from the outside about that fact, I can assure you ignorance is survivable. Indeed for too many of us, ignorance and stupidity are pleasurable.
I have learned one lesson here: I’m not going to say, uneducated anymore. I’m going to say, undereducated. Seems to fit us all alot more betterer.
Bob Wulkowicz
We have convinced ourselves in a zillion areas that there single causes and explanations for everything we can encounter. We compound that ignorance by thinking that we actually know for ourselves or have someone provide the answer for us. A customer asking four arborists is innocently on that journey.
----------------------
Nature doesn't see things the same way. Nature is integral, not discrete. Sprouts can have more than one purpose, they can serve different purposes in different phases of growth, they can good or they can be not so good (so far as people are concerned) depending on external factors.
I like the use of the word integral here, although there are some very precise other definitions. To me, nature is multiple in its creations, not singular. And I don't mean just species, but again the amazing wealth of routine successes fortified by continual tweakings.
If I may offer another label; we're really talking in this thread about self-similarity. A watersprout is the replication, or a reiteration, of the tree. Different age, different scale, different orientation, but the same structure, the same rules, the same intended successes.
What else is different; our selected, insistent choice of purpose. Here we say what a waterspout is and why. What it does and doesn't. Whether it is good or bad. Whether we've uncovered nature’s mistake.
Sorry, I have to comment on our being rather presumptuous. There’s 200 million years of of practical wood working experience here--compared to perhaps a few thousand in discovering we have a brain. (For those leaping for their keyboards, I’m not saying we don’t know anything; I’m just saying, we don’t know everything.)
-------------------
Fast growth freaks us out because cancer tends to be fast growing, things that grow fast tend to be more susceptible to external forces... we figure they are weaker because they grew fast.
I don’t think it’s that specific; seems to me like accumulated biases, you know, the stuff we pay for in schools.
-----------------------
I'm speaking generally here because we generally know what sprouts do, they draw water... we even think we know why but I'll wager we don't even know half the story.
As for Shigo and epicormics, that sounds out of context. Shigo was perfectly aware that with each year of growth an epicormic shoot becomes more strongly attached. Nobody said they were AS strong as normal branches.
One of the smartest things I've said to my customers when they asked about something like that is, "I don't know", but the current thinking is, yadayadayada.". Shigo didn't KNOW, Guy and Bob don't KNOW and I don't KNOW. But We all know that knowledge is both culmulative and subtractive. Sometimes a previous theory with tons of scientific support is disproven... or more likely, altered to fit the new data.
--------------------------
What I dearly loved and respected about Alex, was hearing him in my first class answering a fellow student’s question by saying, I don’t know. I was staggered--here’s the first person I’d seen behind a podium with the balls to say, I don’t know. Remarkable.
--------------------------
(For the reader, these closing comments are reiterations--replication, just like a watersprout
The idea that Shigo and ONLY Shigo knows the truth about tree biology is stupid. The idea that ONLY research produces viable theories, is STUPID. Most new theories come from observation, not research. Research is how you SUPPORT the theory, not how you create it.
The fear that I think I see, is feeling our own credibility is undermined if we say, we do’t know. As one very well practiced in ignorance, being told many times from the outside about that fact, I can assure you ignorance is survivable. Indeed for too many of us, ignorance and stupidity are pleasurable.
I have learned one lesson here: I’m not going to say, uneducated anymore. I’m going to say, undereducated. Seems to fit us all alot more betterer.
Bob Wulkowicz
[ QUOTE ]
Great discussion.
I've never been satisfied with parroting from books. Great minds and solid research form the basis of my analysis or explanation for each case I see, or each request I'm dealt with. Then I try and puzzle it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know who loves parroting books? Them what sells them.
[ QUOTE ]
Each case is new for me, but I recognize patterns based on species and cultural situation. I judge accordingly. I might judge wrong, but I still try and read the tree in each case.
And I don't have books published and a degree in biology either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. It's survivable, isn't it?
Bob the W
Great discussion.
I've never been satisfied with parroting from books. Great minds and solid research form the basis of my analysis or explanation for each case I see, or each request I'm dealt with. Then I try and puzzle it out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you know who loves parroting books? Them what sells them.
[ QUOTE ]
Each case is new for me, but I recognize patterns based on species and cultural situation. I judge accordingly. I might judge wrong, but I still try and read the tree in each case.
And I don't have books published and a degree in biology either.
[/ QUOTE ]
Me too. It's survivable, isn't it?
Bob the W
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
Actually... Nora DOES have a book published, it's about insects of the Prairie... she's a lot smarter than she lets on.
guymayor
Branched out member
- Location
- East US, Earth
"we're really talking in this thread about self-similarity. A watersprout is the replication, or a reiteration, of the tree. Different age, different scale, different orientation, but the same structure, the same rules, the same intended successes."
Uh
sorry but I must suggest an alternative view: Reiteration is any shoot that repeats the basic form of the tree, but not all sprouts, and even fewer watersprouts (upright sprouts with a strong vertical orientation, typically found in the interior) are truly reiterations. They for one reason or another are too lacking in vigor and not close enough to symmetry or tree form to be worked with as reiterations. Diameter tells a lot of the difference--watersprouts are whippy, reiterations are more solid.
Different structures, different hydraulics, different roles in the tree's function. Reiterations as new growth in an old tree are piped into the vascular system with much larger vessels than other sprouts or older branches are. for more on reiterations see Halle', Pfisterer, the late great Pierre Raimbault, Neville Fay, etc.
Also a good synopsis by Blinky. We must be presumptuous enough to hypothesize, deduce, and induce--how else do we learn? We are forced daily to act without absolute knowledge. One thing we may all be able to agree on--we are all undereducated!
Uh
Different structures, different hydraulics, different roles in the tree's function. Reiterations as new growth in an old tree are piped into the vascular system with much larger vessels than other sprouts or older branches are. for more on reiterations see Halle', Pfisterer, the late great Pierre Raimbault, Neville Fay, etc.
Also a good synopsis by Blinky. We must be presumptuous enough to hypothesize, deduce, and induce--how else do we learn? We are forced daily to act without absolute knowledge. One thing we may all be able to agree on--we are all undereducated!
