SRT anchors

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some poor sod, scared out of his wits and pumped up on adrenaline

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Who's to say this guy can properly use a belay device?
 
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Tr33,

I hope that the utility pole was used as a photo-op setup and not to anchor a climber. The guy who taught me to climb 30 years ago was a Ma Bell lineman and he showed me plenty of rotten poles...not good anchors when they get all cracked up like that.

For a rescue anchor I would suggest strongly that you use a double tuck on that figure eight. F8's do not generate that much friction compared to other devices. A munter on a proper HMS biner will provide MORE friction with a single wrap. In a rescue situation there is a good chance that you'd be lowering two people on a single wrap...not enough friction.

Just nit picking here...I'd add a screw link in place of the aluminum ring because it's easier to setup.

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The utility pole is one of four legs of the outdoor climbing structure at Midstate. So yes it was actually used for an anchor.

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yes plus that pole is very deep in cement
 
Just wondering how many people have actually lowered someone or been lowered in a rescue situation with a srt belay(in a work situations).On that note how many people have actually performed a real aerial rescue,I havent and hope I dont have too?Correct me if im wrong but is it ANSI standard to have someone one on the crew within shouting distance who is trained in aerial rescue with ar gear off the truck on all jobs,I guess I miss that one also.I try not to work by myself or with strange people off the street who dont know how to lower me,if I actually ever needed to be lowered.I think there is alot of really good Ideas for trunk belays and you can make them simple or really complicated.What matters is the person on the ground actually is trained in using it.
 
I cant believe an eight wouldnt give enough friction to lower two, and if it couldnt, take a half wrap on the trunk. it can stop dead a lead climber taking a factor two fall. I think it should be able to lower a climber.
 
This is a general reply to this entire thread. SRT anchors: I use a Petzl GriGri backed up with a mule and beaner (see Petzl.com) It is easy to release when loaded and requires less skill (not no skill) for ground person to lower climber on ascent. I use SRT for the majority of access into trees, but almost never to work from because I like having both strands of my climbing line in front of my face.

Z and beaners: I think the intent of the Z is to make the gear as safe as possible. People still drive around without their seatbelts on while smoking cigaretts and that is where darwin's theories kick in. The part of the standard I wonder about is the distinction between beaner and snaps. The ISC Snap Beaner passes the Z and is very easy to use-compared to a double-locking ball lock beaner. The folks that don't like double-locking beaner ususally have not spent the time developing the muscle memory necessary to become proficient with their use.

I thank those of you that spend the time and energy working on the Z. Without it we would have some low level OSHA employee who has never been in a tree or run a chainsaw making up the rules from some back office in Washington.

Mark Saulsgiver
SilvaSauls Inc
Westport, NY
 
I have never had a probem lowering anyone on a rescue eight. My rescue company does it at least 2-3 times a week in training if not durring some kind of rescue. Any thing over 300 lbs we use two wraps on it and any thing over one hundred ft we use a rack.

If the concern is that you dont fell you have control durring decent on it then put a french wrap connected to your leg of the harnnes on it. Doing so will make sure that if for some reason you move without control you will have a auto-block on it. We only use an auto-block for the swat team do to them having to let go of the rope and pull there side arm.

In my mind there is no issue with using an eight just know your limitations with them.
 
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I have lowered a co-worker in an emergency once.


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I'd of just cut the line
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I have lowered a co-worker in an emergency once.


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I'd of just cut the line
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Good one. No one saw that coming from you.


SZ
 
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In my mind there is no issue with using an eight just know your limitations with them.

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This is the nucleus of my issue of using F8s. Too many arbos just grab one and slap it on a rope. Never checking the specs to see what diameter and construction rope that the F8 is compatible with. At too many TCC I see climbers in the Footlock event with some small F8 then using it to wrap a doubled half inch or even 11mm line...and the F8 is NOT rated for that. When I've said something about it I get poo-pooed...WHAT!?

Sure, an F8 could be used to lower a two-person load if the belayer had trained properly and had the muscle memory. But that isn't the case. Then...add in some excitement and the belayer moving over to do some rope wrangling and the belayer shifts to using one hand to belay...ooops! dropped the victim and rescuer.

Why NOT use a system that has too much friction? One, where the rescuer could potentially let go of the rope and there is enough friction in the system to not let the victim drop? That is a fundamental of the way that I look at SRT anchors.
 
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Why NOT use a system that has too much friction? One, where the rescuer could potentially let go of the rope and there is enough friction in the system to not let the victim drop? That is a fundamental of the way that I look at SRT anchors.

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In my mind that would prevent a quick and speedy rescue, which is exactly why its all set up. If you could let go with out the victim going anywhere, how are you expecting to get the victim down quick? Were talking an emergency situation here, isn't fast a good thing?
 
Fast generally is NOT a good thing, in and of itself. By fast do you mean 20 seconds compared to 60? One minute compared to five? Five minutes compared to two hours? It's all relative and in an emergency situation our perception of time is altered anyway, things can seem to slow way down or happen way too quickly. I think speed is not as critical as CONTROL - the ability to manage the power in your hands without screwing the pooch.
 
When setting up an SRT anchor, consideration should be given to the SRT system being used. The more cumbersome the change over and self-rescue ability of the system, the more it is important for a reliable ground-based lowering system to be incorporated.

The F8 or the Piranha backed up by a Prussic hitch creates a reliable and safe (synergistic ?) effect because the whole is the greater than the parts. An example is Treebing's F8 revolver's ability to share the load to work single line.

Dave
 
If he cant use it then he should'nt be at the bottom! :)

Anyone who may have to perform a rescue must be trained to be able to do it.

My point about descenders with a stop-go-stop is that they are much easier to control and safer to use even by trained operatives. All rescue are stressfull situations and if the rescuer slips/looses grip/paincs/etc while using a fig8 or munter then you have a problem - if you are using a good descender (not belay device) then you dont.

You can use lots of different things to lower people but just because you can does not always mean you should - there are tests and standards for equipment for good reason. Yes a fig8 can lower someone and so can a munter hitch but are they as safe as you can possibly make it? Where there are peoples lives potentially at stake - especially when they are not our own why take the risk?

None of the rescue services we work with use fig8's (only the tactical teams do because they can belt it down a rope fast) as they are not judged to be safe enough.
 
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None of the rescue services we work with use fig8's (only the tactical teams do because they can belt it down a rope fast) as they are not judged to be safe enough.

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Thats strange to hear that you dont use a rescue eight in any of your rescues. Don't get me wrong I see nothing wrong with it just would like to know why.


Why in a rescue would you not have safeties in your system. I think in that case you need to remember that smooth is fast and to not lose your head. If all hands in the rescue were to let go of the rescue system at one time the rescue climber and vic should not fall. Just seems that something is way wrong if you are worried about a belayer leting go of the rope.
 
Backing up a figure 8 with a Prussic hitch does give it a fail safe. If for whatever reason the person doing the lowering panics at a critical moment, a properly tied Prussic will hold the load.

Dave
 
Adding friction hitches does add a layer of redundancy. Carefully choosing the hitch and cord is important because some combos will lock off with very little shock load. If this happens during a rescue are the rescuers trained in techniques to add a piggy back system to release the load on the jammed hitch?

As we know, hitches that work in DdRT will jam hard in SRT. The same thing will likely happen using hitches on a single line rescue setup.
 
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Carefully choosing the hitch and cord is important because some combos will lock off with very little shock load....

As we know, hitches that work in DdRT will jam hard in SRT...

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This is true. All systems need to be designed in such a way that they work. What is recommended for one situation, may be totally wrong for another.

If treework becomes any more complicated, I'm quitting!
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Dave
 
Hi Fairfield,

That is the reason why we use descenders such as the Axle/I'D/Anthron insted of fig8s and the like. The natural action for them is to be in a stop position unlike the fig8/munter that has to be tied off. When using them if you let go the rope it stops and if you pull/squeeze too hard in panic it stops too. They make our systems safe and give really good control over the load.

Tying additional hitches and/or running autoblock on the lowering rope behind the fig8 works but just adds to the work and stress of the rescuer - they have to tend a fig8 and a munter/autoblock at the same time.

Our typical rescue will invove lifting the casualty enough to release them from their system (20-30cm max) so no cutting is needed and then lower them to the ground. Unless the casualty is bleeding heavily the rescuer never goes down to them as this puts two bods in suspension and all the dangers that can occur.
 
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